Newel post help

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Gothichome
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Newel post help

Post by Gothichome »

Ok folks, my problem. The newel post finial is just resting in it's socket. Has for years, it gets knocked off easily over the decades or century it has some broken pieces as a resaults. Nothing I can do about the missing pieces but I can prevent it from being knocked off in the future.
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This is the poor finial in question, you can see it has had some extensive repairs and at one point looks like they attempted to secure it with yellow glue.

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This is a look down the post it self. You can see the socket is't realy that deep. Obviously not up to the task of holding the finial.
My question to the smart folks are:
What is the traditional way to mount the final and What would be your suggestions for a more permanent mounting.
In my head I have two thoughts, first an long peice of steel rod drilled and set into the finial and sitting deep into the post. The other is the same idea only with a wooden dowel and glued in place. My conundrum, the steel rod would most definitely hold the finial in place but in my mind, that risks the braking of the already weakened finial should some one swing hard on it. The wooden dowl option has the weakness of the dowel braking and the finial once again on the floor.
My only other option, is a sign threatening to cut the hands off of any one swinging on the newel post. But that's not very hospitable, plus it would not go with the antiqueness of the hallway.

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Mick_VT
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Re: Newel post help

Post by Mick_VT »

Easy choice for me, I would use a wooden dowel - using a strong hardwood like white oak. I would not use metal. Having said that I think you can get something that looks like a large double ended screw for this exact job unless I am mistaken.

It looks like there is a broken dowel there already, or is that just a trick of the light?
Mick...

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Re: Newel post help

Post by Gothichome »

Mick, a hard wood dowel you think. That would make sense, I had invisioned a softwood dowel. The hole that it fits in is solid, what you see as an outer ring is a layer of yellow glue, if it originally was secured with a wooden dowel then a hardwood dowel will be the replacement. I would need to drill out both peg and hole. Not a big deal, the finial does have a smaller hole that has been filled with glue but is smaller than the exposed wood in the post. Now that I'm thinking of it, if the hole in the post is a broken dowel, it realy doesn't matter what size dowel I use, there is solid wood to drill into. Gezz some times the simplest solutions I miss looking for the complicated solutions.

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Al F. Furnituremaker
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Re: Newel post help

Post by Al F. Furnituremaker »

I would go for putting in a new wooden dowel. But...., clean as much of the old glue out as you can, or, drill the hole just a little bigger and deeper down into new wood. The cleaned wood and new wood will provide a better glue joint. I would also use hide glue in case you need to do it again. The small hole is for a key. A small dowel was inserted to prevent the finial from turning and breaking the glue joint.

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Re: Newel post help

Post by Gothichome »

Well, there you go, was wondering why there was that second hole. Makes sense, thanks Al.

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Re: Newel post help

Post by HistoricDesign »

I would be careful about drilling too far and I certainly wouldn't be interested in steel rod. If it were in my house I would first scrape off/remove all the old PVA glue. The problem with this stuff is that newer layers will not adhere to the old, meaning the joint will fail again and again. Once the PVA is gone use animal hide glue, which will adhere to old glue. That way if it fails (which it likely will some day), the new hide glue will stick to the old. I would add a short bit of dowel to fit into the smaller hole on the cap and into the smaller hole in the newel (carefully drill and deepen the hole if needed.) If the fit is a little loose, you can glue a maple shaving around the round part to increase the diameter so it will fit tighter.

Cheers

MJ

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Re: Newel post help

Post by phil »

I'd drill the hole larger. that will get rid of the glue. go to the next size up where you can find dowel. or make your own dowel to fit the hole properly. Glue the dowel in, then when dry cut it off flush. now you can drill a new hole for the dowel hole to match the dowel on the finial. you coukd go to a 3/4" or even a 1" hole.

If you drill new holes use a forstner bit and go slowly, so it doesn't chip out.

I'd scrape any bits of old glue off the finial and when you drill the new hole make sure it is the right size to fit it.

People have a habit of trying to unscrew them as they go up the stairs so the peg makes sense just so it doesn't turn. If that peg or it's hole is worn you can do similar to refresh the hole or the dowel.

if you think you may have trouble with the bit wandering when you drill the post out then you can temporarily fill the hole with epoxy wood filler putty and then when you go to drill it out you can remove the putty with the drill. Its easier to drill a fresh hole accurately than it is to drill a previously worn out hole larger. the forestner bit will work best if it has something there for it's point to cut into , that's why I'd take the temporary step of filling it , before you drill the fresh hole. .

when finished the post will have a larger hole drilled, let's say 1" that will then have a 1" dowel glued in and cut off and then you can drill the 1" dowel to match the finial. 1/2" or whatever it is. this will leave you with a nice square hole with no glue remnants and be as strong as original. the repaired hole will be hidden in the joint so you won't see any visual evidence of the repair.

If you really wanted to you could also drill out the finial and make a new dowel with a similar method but you;d really need a drill press or a lathe or at least a way to clamp it adequately to work on the finial. Myself I'd leave the finial as is and just work on the post to achieve a good fit to the existing finial and it's dowel without doing more to the finial than just cleaning any old glue off.

I agree hide glue is best for this, at least for final instlallation of the finial. I'd probably use carpenters glue to glue in the 1?" dowel.

I'd use maple for the dowels if you have a choice. but as long as its a hardwood it'll be fine.


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Re: Newel post help

Post by Gothichome »

Phil, thanks for the input, not sure my local big box has maple dowels. I know they have the oak ones though. Your plan has merit, although drilling over size and cutting flush would be hard in the post there is already the stump from the original dowel peg and it is flush to the bottom of the hole, but would work on the finial side though. My concern on the finial side drilling would be the whole thing braking apart at the old repair, I'm thinking a band clamp around the out side of the mount should do the trick in securing the old repair. Looking at the large blob of yellow glue on the finial in that one area, I suspect that's were the keying dowel was. I can locate that any were on the same pitch diameter.

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Re: Newel post help

Post by phil »

I made my knob since it was missing. I made kind of a rounded octagon shape from fir. what I did was embedded a nut in the knob with epoxy and imbeded a piece of redi rod so it screws on. In my case I need to be able remove the knob and I made the handrail and the pickets so it can come out using invisible shelf hooks. so I can unscrew the knob , pull up on the rail up and it comes out , then remove one part with the pickets and top and bottom rail. I needed to do that to be able to get furniture up to my attic. You'd never know by looking at it that it comes out so easily. Now and then I have kids over and they like to unscrew the knob .

In your case it's more preservative. I think you could fill the hole in the post and then just re drill the hole and insert a peg. any old bits of glue or remnants of the peg won't stop the drill but you'd have to be careful to keep the drill perpendicular. one way to stop it from wandering is to drill in steps from small to large. For that you;d need to use twist drills not forstner bits. You wont' see the hole anyway, so as long as it's a good fit to the peg you have on the knob and not crooked, it will be fine. one trick to drilling the hole square is to pre-drill a scrap of 2x4 on a drill press so it's square then put that on top of the post so when you drill the new hole you are just continuing the already plumb hole. I'd start with a small hole about 1/8th and just worry about getting it square and then increase the drill bit size slowly to your dowel size. You don't really need to put a larger dowel in and cut it off and redrill that but you can if you need to. either way I think it's easier to drill a new hole through wood , putty whatever glue is in there than to try to follow the existing hole.

The dowel is a bit short but as long as it fits the hole it should be ok. you can drill a new hole for the pin, Just be careful to get the alignment right for the two holes. make the larger dowel fit and then locate the smaller dowel.
drill one hole, than use a tool like this to dimple the other side. Just ignore the old location and pick a new spot for the small dowel if it's gone on the knob side. drill that side first. you can probably just make your own tool.but to describe what it looks like :

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dowel-Centre-Po ... 1099360599

I don't' understand how you'd use a band clamp other than maybe to hold the knob if you wanted to work on it. by band clamp did you mean a hose clamp?

that peg in the knob may have a slight taper. if it is and if the corresponding hole also has a matching slight taper then it would fit tight in the hole. you can check if it's tapered. even a slight taper on a fit like this will do the same as the pin is doing ( stop it from turning) as a comparison often machine bits have tapered shanks and when you insert them into each other they lock together. maybe a better example is a peg to hold a guitar or violin string at the correct tension. the tapered fit stops it from turning surprisingly well.

If you had to redrill the hole in the knob and insert a new pin it's possible but if not necessary I wouldn't work on that , just leave it. as long as the fit is ok then the glue will do the rest. that pin is probably turned with the knob and not a dowel. and if you tried to drill it out you could break the knob if you aren't careful, Its also harder to keep that square since the knob is round and hard to hold.

If anything goes wrong just save the splinters and glue them back with carpenters glue right away. If you need to fill gaps I'd use epoxy putty for filling wood. You can get those sticks where you cut off what you need and then knead it to mix it and then it sets up.
Don't use glue to fill gaps, thick blobs of glue don't' have strength unless its epoxy. you shouldn't have any issue drilling through the epoxy filler but where you can see a problem is when you drill a hole where one side of the bit is cutting through a harder material than the other side of the bit.

sometimes if you drill a screw hole and then find you want to move it over just slightly, and find you can't do that because the screw will want to follow the previous hole, you can fill the screw hole with tooth picks or shards of wood that are wet with glue and then you can cut that off flush and then predrill the screw hole exactly where you wanted it to be.

If you wanted to you could just slather it with epoxy and reinstall it and that would be strong but I think Al suggested you to use hide glue because it's reversible. If you use epoxy glue it'll break the wood before you split the joint should you ever want to take it apart again but Its not really that likely you will need to , its just good practice when working on antiques. If you fixed an old chair with epoxy than it would be pretty well impossible to work on it again but if you used hide glue you could still work on the chair and maybe use steam to undo your joints. so the epoxy isn't as good from a restoration perspective.

as long as the knob is straight you probably won't ever want to remove it and if you did it could still be cut off and replaced. on a dry fit you'll see if the knob is crooked or anything. one of the properties of epoxy glue ( like 5 minute epoxy) it will fill gaps and still make a strong bond. carpenters glue or hide glue is only strong in the form of it's bonding strength. If you build it up to fill a gap it won't have much strength at all with most glues, but epoxy can fill gaps and still have strength. It can't be steamed apart though , it's permanent. with something like a chair you can have many joints that depend on each other and if some guy comes along and repairs one with epoxy it can make really difficult for a future restorer to work on so for this reason it's sometimes not the best option for antiques. it also wont' take a finish like wood will so if you get epoxy all over something it can make a real mess for someone doing refinishing..

in some cases epoxy is still ok in my book. as an example at home I have a victorian chair from the 1800s , it has nicely carved features.part of the arm sticks out through the cloth covered section . at some point someone broke the arm off. its a really irregular shaped break and the wood where the break is is hidden by the upholstery. I think splinters have been lost. what I will probably do is drill little holes and use little metal or wood rods to locate the two parts as perfectly as possible. I may drill some external holes where the cloth parts hold it and use pins to locate the parts exactly where I want. once I had my locating pins working then I might use epoxy to glue the arm back on and fill any voids because of the lost splinters.

the other little issue you could see is if you fill the hole with glue and try to insert the peg and you could have a situation where the glue has no where to ooze out. sometimes dowels have a split on one side and if not you cna cut little slots with a hacksaw blade to give the glue a place to exit to prevent the situation of hydraulics from not allowing the peg to go into the hole.

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