Window sash questions/discussion?

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Vala
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Window sash questions/discussion?

Post by Vala »

I had pondered about making several posts but decided it might be easier just to do it as one post.

I was wondering about how to secure the sash cord into the side of the sash. I know the most common answer is to double knot it same as the old and it should be fine. But is it also secured with a nail or just left as a knot only? Also someone else mentioned to me if you put a nail in the center of the knot, but the knot comes undone, then you will have a problem.

I've encountered both sashes that were only knotted and some sashes that had no knot, but along the plough were just nailed in with 2 nails on each side. Also with nailing, I'm not really sure how you would nail a nail to hold the knot because the hole tends to be deep and the nail won't really have enough wood to bite into to hold in place unless you nailed at an angle.

Also with my sashes I got from Hoffmeyer's, oddly enough with them being so adamant I give exact tracings/measurements of my plough and bore hole, they say the way they do it, they just plough all one length as opposed to the way the originals were done, where the plough narrows to only the width of the sash cord, then widens...

sash side.jpg
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Compared to the originals
sash old.jpg
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So I imagine the reason that was done was to prevent the knot from becoming dislodged, however with the way they do it, where the entire width is ploughed wide instead of having that narrow part, I wonder if the knot could slip out of that hole, which would mean I would have to nail it in place which defeats the purpose of the bore hole.

Can anyone shed some light on this?


2nd question
I know the consensus on here is that back bedding with putty is better than just glazing on the top/front of the glass. However I do have some concerns about that. The first is that back bedding requires removing the glass, which is where you have the biggest chance of breaking glass, and not everyone has much spare antique glass. Maybe this might be fine for someone with experience, but I'm thinking down the line, in the future someone might end up breaking the glass becuase it was back bedded. Also when you get into things like leaded or stained glass, this becomes more problematic than just clear glass. - Esp considering I am doing some Queen Anne and leaded windows.

I understand why back bedding is recommended, so that this sort of thing does not happen

sash leak.jpg
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Which brings me to my second issue with back bedding when originally it was not back bedded, you won't be able to slide the glazing points into the same holes again, I often prefer to do this because the old wood tends to be really, really hard and I have a really difficult time making new holes for glazing points in old sashes.

Also on the topic of glazing points, I noticed old time points seem to be made of tin, and are handmade, all the commercially produced ones today are steel, and even the new triangular ones tend to be equilateral triangles rather than the original ones that mostly tend to be isosceles triangles, I noticed the isosceles variety tend to be easier to work with than equilateral points. I had used tin snips to convert one to the other, however this seems like defeating the purpose of buying pre made ones, makes me want to get some sheet metal and clip my own, however I was unsure where to get sheet metal and in the appropriate thickness.


And my final question was about protecting large picture sash or stained/leaded glass. Is it better to get one of those professional grade protection systems installed like what they have on churches or is it better to get a wooden storm sash and install some grade of tempered or shatter proof plexi glass in that?

Thanks in advance,

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Shrimpdip
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Re: Window sash questions/discussion?

Post by Shrimpdip »

The sash cords I have replaced here all have a nail through the knot and a tack driven through the cord about 2"-3" above the knot. Belt and suspenders I suppose. :-)
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Re: Window sash questions/discussion?

Post by heartwood »

best practice is to use bedding...it acts as a cushion for the glass and a seal at the interior...paint over wood and putty onto glass....if you are restoring old sash and prefer to leave the glass in place, apply some blopentine at the interior and exterior where the glass meets the wood...this will ensure that the dry wood will not wick oil from the new putty...

a nail should not be necessary to maintain the knot/rope in position, tension should secure it in place...if you want added security, I suggest using a heavy duty staple rather than a nail or screw...apply an inch or so above the knot with prongs on either side of the rope...it appears that your old sash may have had a 'tunnel' plough where you thread the rope through the tunnel, make a knot and set it into place...often these tunnels are cut out or break out over time...

use whatever points makes you happy...thickness should allow you to tap them into place without bending...

whatever protection/storm window you use, make sure to allow for ventilation...a sealed secondary cover creates a mini climate between the two and will cause premature failure of paint and putty...NO plexiglass...it yellows and cracks...often folks screw the plexi directly onto the exterior trim--NOT good...

hope that helps.....
.....jade

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Re: Window sash questions/discussion?

Post by Vala »

Thanks Jade, much appreciated the advice. I didn't know there were some sashes that did not have the tunnel feature. That's all I've ever seen around here.

On the topic of protection glass, the stuff I had in mind to protect from was more akin to vandalism or rocks hit by lawn mowers. At some point some kid shot a BB through the corner of one of my stain glass windows before we moved in.

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Re: Window sash questions/discussion?

Post by Vala »

Also not to mention I have a cracked pane in my big leaded window downstairs, also before I moved in. no idea on how that happened. Also the 2 big picture windows currently have 2 large panes of glass with wood stops holding them in place, something I want to get rid of as it doesn't really offer any real protection as I'm sure if something goes through the outer pane, its not going to slow down enough to protect the inner pane. Not to mention that guy painted the windows white to match the plastic junk and I really want to paint them black. I was told I have to pay someone to come and remove those due to the weight of the panes (approx 70x60 inches), not to mention the one on the second story. :\

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Re: Window sash questions/discussion?

Post by heartwood »

there are pros and cons for using plexi or lexan...they will, however, offer better protection against projectiles of a certain size than glass will... check this out: http://www.plasticgenius.com/2011/08/pl ... tchup.html

is the sash 70x60 or is it the glass itself? seems to me that you are capable of taking on projects that others may not feel comfortable doing...maybe a friend can assist in removing the sash...sash are removed from the interior so the second floor shouldn't be an issue...if these sash are 'fixed' as in inoperable, you may want to attach plexi/lexan directly to the sash....special drill bits for screws and vent holes are available...

make sense?
....jade

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Vala
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Re: Window sash questions/discussion?

Post by Vala »

heartwood wrote:there are pros and cons for using plexi or lexan...they will, however, offer better protection against projectiles of a certain size than glass will... check this out: http://www.plasticgenius.com/2011/08/pl ... tchup.html

is the sash 70x60 or is it the glass itself? seems to me that you are capable of taking on projects that others may not feel comfortable doing...maybe a friend can assist in removing the sash...sash are removed from the interior so the second floor shouldn't be an issue...if these sash are 'fixed' as in inoperable, you may want to attach plexi/lexan directly to the sash....special drill bits for screws and vent holes are available...

make sense?
....jade


Thanks for the lead, I'll investigate!

Thanks for the kind words! Here's the situation

The 1st floor picture sash is 54" x 74" - its a 2 lite configuration with a 48" x 48" square pane with mouth blown glass (Bendheim doesn't even sell glass this big, thus my desire to protect it) and an upper lite with leaded glass of 20" x 48". The new is glass attached to the outside with wood stops is the same size as the entire sash area. Same thing on the 2nd floor sash, except it is 4 inches shorter (54"x 70") however with the same perfect square lower pane glass area. Also has the same thing with a piece of normal glass held in with wood stops. They are both stationary sashes, not double or single hung. Interestingly from the pulleys embedded in the jambs and weight pockets, they were both once double hung windows (with equal glass area for top and bottom sashes) but were replaced early on with stationary sash, there are a couple of other houses in town that still have extremely large/wide double hung front windows.

Perhaps the 1st floor one could be managed, but the 2nd floor one, I'd be standing on the porch roof and that's not really the best footing to be standing on to remove a very large pane of glass. Plus then I'd need something else to put in its place for some actual protection after I finish carefully scraping paint off the glass then painting the sash black to match the rest.

I have no reason to remove the actual wood sash, just the new glass pane held on from the outside.

This is what I have on both the 1st and 2nd stories.
modern pane over original.jpg
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Re: Window sash questions/discussion?

Post by Mick_VT »

If it were me I would get rid of that glass and add an interior storm - let the beauty of the window be truly seen from the outside
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Re: Window sash questions/discussion?

Post by Vala »

Mick_VT wrote:If it were me I would get rid of that glass and add an interior storm - let the beauty of the window be truly seen from the outside


Yea, but the problem is it would not protect from vandalism or potential rocks. With 2 different windows already damaged, I don't want anything else to happen.

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Re: Window sash questions/discussion?

Post by phil »

one method I used was to cut the groove wide , then install the stained glass with foam or mastic tape on the outer side, then install the lexan. the two panes are close enough that it doesn't really show much but ads protection from rocks or break ins. on mine I drilled a couple of little holes to allow the space between to vent if condensation gets in there.

if you have small cracks in your stained glass window, and don't want to disassemble it, you could look at the little repair kits for cracked windshields. If you want to fix it it's possible to use a dremil to cut the lead away enough to replace the one piece and then solder the lead came back together. youd do it flat on the table of course. you'd have to be careful with the heat not to crack the glass.

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