Porch repair - minor (I think?) wood rot

[Kashka-Kat]

Next up on the agenda - the PO did a lame ass repair job on the porch trim -using flashing and caulk. Of course the caulk gave out and water seeped in behind the flashing. So I took it all apart - mostly porch is still solid - this gives you some idea of what Im talking about:

porchtrim1.jpg (636.07 KiB) Viewed 1082 times

This shows the worst spot - I think its just the 1x 6 boards that is rotted - the post inside seems to be OK but I haven't really dug in there to see. On the left you can see the lame ass job with the trim covering the gap and the flashing

porchtrim3.jpg (524.57 KiB) Viewed 1082 times

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Im thinking just get out the Abatron and have at it and re-do the 1 x 2 horizontal strips - make them wider so they tuck UNDER the vertical porch trim pieces instead of butting up against them. However I want to make sure Im not missing anything - I want to be sure its done in a way that doesnt contribute to further rot. Advice please?

Bear in mind this is not an original porch so its not worth reconfiguring in any major kind of way - it was probably re done and screened in in the 40s. The stairs were originally in the center rather than on the side of the porch & I think it probably had big massive pillars and was an open porch, as was typical of these concrete houses. Sigh. Another thing that was messed up by PO's and will never be the same .

[Kashka-Kat]

Picture showing porch in context of rest of the house is here: http://www.thehistoricdistrict.org/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=106

[Gothichome]

Kasha, I would just remove the boards and replace. Once the old boards are off you can then get a better idea about the post underneath. Back prime the boards first before installing. as I see it abate should fix up the horizontal boards with no fuss, if you can get a bit of a slope to the corner would also help a lot. Also, let the post have time to dry out if has soaked up some water befor installing new boards.
Give the folks who built the poarch a little credit, it has lasted sixty or more years.

[Kashka-Kat]

I was hoping to avoid replacing any wood bc those are the 1 inch boards that really are 1 inch - but OK if that's what it takes to do it right. Really, it would only be on that 1 corner. What kind of wood? I think it was originally pine but of the old growth, hard as nails type. Does it make sense to use cedar or green treated (but then paint it)

Btw my main gripe was with the PO who did the most recent futzing with the caulk and the flashing. The switch to the enclosure in the 40s was done quite well.

[Casey]

Hi,
Unless you could take the built-up corner post completely out, turn it upside down and really let the liquid epoxy soak in, that's not an ideal job to use Abatron effectively. The alternative to removal is to drill lots of 1/4" holes not quite all the way through the boards (and angled downwards) and fill them with epoxy via a dye bottle or other pointy-tipped applicator. You turn the wood into swiss cheese from where it is punky up to where it is solid, and keep injecting the epoxy. But honestly, this is not a molding or a window frame, it's easily-replaceable flat stock.
Regarding the thickness: if you were to make up a new post, you could work with contemporary 3/4" stock and get the same size post by making all the pieces a bit wider. OTOH, if you used 1 1/2" thick material, you could maintain the existing size by rabbetting the edges of the boards so where they met, the wood was reduced down to the original thickness; the glued rabbett joint is also much stronger, etc.
I think it would be worth the time to hunt down your closest hardwood lumber yard, and make a connection, because they will come in really handy for a lot of things. The one we use is also a millwork, so they run moldings, and have a window-sash maker as well.It is a great relationship to cultivate.
Casey

[phil]

Capillary action at work. I think the post will be rotten if you take the facia boards off. the rot doesn't care how thick the wood is as long as there is a place for water to get in and stay, time does the rest. You could replace the post but that'll involve taking a lot more apart. I guess it's your decision how far you'd like to go. from the view in the pictures it doesn't look like anyone could fall far. drilling it and then pushing some epoxy in and then hammering dowels in to the holes after filling them might help stake it together and that might drive some epoxy in and strengthen it. Kind of mickey mouse but if you don't want to take it apart and it isn't a big safety thing it might do for now. you could actually drive a few pegs in like that and when dry, cut them flush and drill more holes and do the same, put some epoxy ( or albatron) then drive a dowel the same size as the hole and that'll work like a hydraulic ram, pushing the epoxy into every crack it can go into. If you were patient enough you could replace wherever you think it's rotten this way. careful if the epoxy has no where to go it might squirt back so wear safety glasses. If you want to prevent the scenario where the peg won't go in just cut a little flat off one side so it has somewhere to back out if it can't go inward.

a couple of suggestions to keep the water out of the posts if you replace them..

you can take a thin kerf saw, like a Japanese saw or a backsaw and make cuts into the corner post before you install it. You only need an eighth or maybe 3/16" make them on an angle, then if you use flashing you have a slot and you can stick the flashing up into the slot you cut in the post and use calk or glue. then when water runs down the post it can't get under the flashing.

If you don't want to use flashing you can cut cant strips. they are triangular strips resembling quarter round. You can run those around the posts and calk them and paint them and this will help prevent any water from getting down around the post hole and rotting it again. You might need to relieve the corners of the panels accordingly. If I cut cant strips I like to cut them so they aren't quite 90 degrees so when I fit them there might be a slight gap towards the square corner but the edges fit tight, any gap is taken up by glue or calking and it's better than having a crack where the cant strip fits and should seal. ( so make them about 91 or 92 degrees rather than an exact 90)

have a look at how it's framed in. Is it easy to pull those facia boards out or are they tied into the joist? If they come off easy, I'd replace the post. If you have to take the whole structure apart then I'd probably lean towards a more creative temporary fix.

with my porch they had put plywood and it wasn't original. they had added a lot of wood around the perimeter but it wasn't so much a part of the structure. It had rotted but my posts were ok. I removed the sheeting and put new sheeting and then fiberglassed the whole thing. Yours has a cover so you don't need fiberglass and it won't really stick to old wood.anyway. what caused a lot of the issues with my deck was not enough slope so the water could pool in certain areas. I chopped about an inch off each post and got some suitable slope which helps it stay cleaner as well as preventing rot. because I used fiberglass, I also used fiberglass edging that is designed with a drip edge. Perhaps you could find some metal edging that would do that. It is like an L that goes over the corner but the lowest part sits about 1/4" away from the facia board so it drips from there rather than soaking the structure. Im going to add little gutters one day to collect the water but for now it's ok like that. with all my edging I routered out about 1/16th from the deck so when I nailed it on it didnt' create a step up where the edging is. Yours is closed in you won't have the water on the deck to contend with , just what hits the sides and runs down.
I'd use fir, but see what kind of rot resistent wood you can find in your area. If you use pressure treated you should use the right kind of screws and remember if you cut it it needs some protection. they sell products to prevent rot but they don't have all the bad stuff they used to and may not perform as well as the older chemicals. If you use new wood , wait a year before you paint it unless you can confirm that the wood you use is not green lumber , or it'll flake off.

if you need different sizes of wood strips I'd suggest getting a decent quality used tablesaw, for 50 or a hundred bucks you can cut the size you want and you'll use it lots once you have a bit of confidence behind using it. It'll pay for itself. if you can spend a little more and you have the space to not move it you can look at a used unisaw or something similar.
a cabinet saw rather than a portable jobsite saw will do more accurate work but you can always do that after you find the need. If you are really tight for cash look for a used radial arm saw, they are out of fashion but will do a lot more than a miter saw or chop saw. With the radial arm saws you need a little instruction and to get the feel for them but I often see ones that work just fine for free on craigslist.

a tablesaw is better for ripping lumber and a radial arm saw is good for crosscutting but they will both do most of the same things. I find I can often save cost by buying lumber and cutting it to what I want or even by finding old doors or other old house parts and re-purposing the lumber. You do have to be wary of what can cause kickbacks and respect any saw but if you just try and get someone to spend a few hours to make sure you aren't doing anything foolish you'll be fine and you'll have a lot more control over what you can do without hiring out or buying pricey

little strips of wood and such. for me I just hate running out to buy this and buy that and if I can make up whatever size part I need I'm happier doing that. I can often get my wood for close to free by being a bit creative and picking up free items to use for wood.
if I really wanted 1" x 6" finished , I'd probably just use "2x6" or "2x8" if your tablesaw blade lifts enough you can cut it to 1 1/8th or 1 1/4 or so by ripping it and flipping it over. if the saw is little and won't lift the blade enough , don't worry just make the two cuts and then use a handsaw to rip it the rest of the way. You'll still have a slot on either side of the board to guide your cut so it won't be as hard as you think to finish the cut.

then finish it off with a hand plane or a jointer. I have a little thickness planer and that works as well. If I want more than a couple of pieces I buy it rough cut from a small mill and then plane it to size but it requires drying first so I save if I plan ahead.

ripping lumber like this is often done on a larger sized bandsaw and that's called "resawing" if you don't have access to a bandsaw you can get by on a tablesaw or have someone else cut it for you, or figure out how to work with standard dimensional lumber.

usually I would prefer to buy an older machine that will do the work than hire out too much work. you could also start with full dimension (2x) and then just send it through a thickness planer until it's 1". you won't have the piece left over but instead, you'll have a 1" board and a lot of sawdust but it's not too labor intensive that way either. Buying finished 1" lumber can be expensive but casey is right , if you can deal with a hardwood dealer or a molding shop they might be able to just order or may stock what you need.
using full dimension lumber and rabbiting it out might work but it depends what's behind. It might be sistered with another plank behind. Hard to see from the pic. If the decking overhangs the fascia board then it'll shed water better so if it isn't really structural maybe you can just replace the 1" fascia board with 3/4" which is common.
in the pictures the white painted fascia board doesn't look rotten but by the looks of the post it's captured water and held it, and it's failing.
another option might be marine grade plywood. it probably comes as 1 inch , it might not be the cheapest way to go but it might work ok and you could paint that in really well and it shouldn't delaminate as long as it isn't getting soaked all the time. you might be able to buy a sheet of 1/2 inch and laminate two pieces using epoxy to seal it all. That would be easy to do with not much machinery. your length would probably be limited to 8" pieces. marine plywood is pretty strong, you could use thinner stff and just laminate it and stagger the joints. I think 3/4 inch marine grade plywood would be pretty strong structurally if the joints don't present a problem. you could always put a few screws to pull them together while the epoxy is wet. Something to consider anyway..



Phil

[Kashka-Kat]

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[Kashka-Kat]

Had someone to look at it this am - wahhh. Wood rot is indeed "minor," but fix may be "major."

It turns out the posts are hollow - it is a"box beam construction," there is no post underneath!!! Which means my thoughts about how to do a fix wont work. The hollow posts sit on top of double joists + decking with is quite soft/semi-rotted on that side as seen in pics.

Not sure WHAT Im going to do, or can do, or who even its possible to find anyone to do this. The guy who came to look at it could not give me any numbers of any kind, re: costs, not even a high/low. To be fair, I understand why but jeez... I just cant give someone a blank check - I mean, help me out here, is it one thousand or twenty thousand?

Anyway I have some thoughts about how to repair the post itself, but the whole question about how to do that edge around the decking ... in a way that wont cause more water damage... just baffles the heck out of me. If the decking was replaced then what do you do with the ends sticking out? Otherwise how can horizontal trim be added on in a way that wont cause more damage?

At this point - even thoughts about quick temporary fixes & how to protect it for now would be useful - flashing?

[mjt]

Check out these posts on my blog for pictures of how we repaired the rotted bottoms of our box posts: http://fixfarrington.blogspot.com/2009_06_01_archive.html.

As mentioned before, getting the proper slope on the decking is key to shedding water.

[phil]

the fascia board on the outside of the flooring is going to help trap dirt and water in amongst the ends of the boards and near the posts. It should be under the decking to support it, not beside the decking.

I think I'd look into moving the fascia board underneath the decking and if that can't happen maybe consider screwing plywood on the deck with a drip edge and maybe fiberglass or vinyl decking to prevent the water going down into the structure. the plywood could run over the edge by an inch or two and with a drip edge it could drip from there and not wet the fascia board.

when the water hits your deck it either needs to drip right through and not collect within the framing or it needs to run off the top surface and away from the structure. If the structure stays wet , and it will like that, it'll rot quickly. you have some structure built on top of the deck so maybe that's keeping a lot of it dry. Can the roof over this structure be extended to shelter this area? maybe a little cover maybe add a window box so it looks like the cover is to protect the window box?
if what's inside that wall is the dry area Yea I guess you could put tin to shelter just the outer edge the problem with that is it'll look like an ugly afterthought. Also if the deck surface gets wet than I don't think you can get any water up onto the flashing for that to work. and any amount of water that got under the flashing would get trapped there and make matters worse.
filling cracks with putty or epoxy won't keep the water out. Gravity will win that game. Unfortunately I think It's mostly a design issue. It started as an outdoor porch but when they closed it in they made maintenance difficult.

do you think you can shelter this area where the edges of the decking and the top of the fascia board collect water or would that be a loosing battle due to the decking getting wet from other sources on the other side of this little wall? if it's dry on the other side of the wall maybe you can shelter it in some creative way. I know you;d rather not rip everything apart especially if it's not really necessary.

maybe if your flashing were attached to the bottom edge of the little blue wall and not attached to the decking below it, if it just stuck out at a slightly downward angle and sheltered this messy problem without helping to trap water behind the flashing, then it might help but I'm not sure how you could make that look like more than a messy afterthought.
the way it is all those cracks will fill with mud and stay wet pretty much all the time. the endgrain of the decking boards will draw water from there. as if they were straws. I think that outer board needs to either move underneath the decking or be sheltered from the rain somehow.

screwing plywood on, and then then having that go onto a drip edge so it can fall from there would be better, . But you can't resheet the whole deck because of the structure on top right? what if you just re-sheet the outer edge? How dry would it be under that sheeting?


here's a drip edge. this one is tin but you can get fiberglass or probably plastic ones. If you are re-sheeting the deck you can router a wee bit off so there isn't a step up onto the top of the drip edge. then the vinyl or fiberglass or paint or whatever you use to protect the flooring can run over the flashing so you only see the outer edge. the lip at the bottom allows the water a place to drip from so it won't drip on the fascia board. If you want you can put a gutter below that or just let it go to the ground.

any little step up near the edge will create a "dirty puddle" . most decks have one or two dirty spots that just happen to form a dish shape and these are susceptible areas. these are the firs places to turn green again after you power wash. If your decking is vinyl or fiberglass these dish shapes might not allow water underneath but anythign like paint will fail from always being wet. the steeper the slope is on your deck the less finicky you need to be.

https://www.lowes.ca/drip-edges/union-c ... 01771.html
Phil