Your thoughts on radiator heat?

[Manalto]

My house currently has gas space heaters in the living, dining and den on the first floor. (The gas company disconnected the space heaters in the upstairs bedrooms and bath, explaining that they were not up to code, and somewhat risky.) This past winter was a mild one so the heat from downstairs was adequate to keep the house comfortable but winters aren't always mild and the space heaters need to be supplemented by electric space heaters. I'm not a fan of either system for safety and health reasons and would like to get clean, efficient heat in the house for next winter.

A friend recommended that I install electric radiant heat under the tile when I redo the upstairs bathroom. I like this idea.

I regularly see cast-iron radiators for sale on Craigslist and wondered - how difficult would it be to install a hot-water (not steam) radiator heating system? I don't mind sacrificing the space in the four corners of the house. There would be no cutting into walls since the house sits on piers and the only cutting into floors would be connecting the pipe to the radiator.

Your thoughts?

[Willa]

Your best bet would be to find an old timer heating/cooling business and speak to them about what you need to have a fully functioning system. I expect you will have to spend some time phoning around before you can find someone willing to answer your (unusual for these days) inquiry ?

It may be overkill for your southern heating requirements but best to speak with a local professional or two ?

[Gothichome]

James, why not try one of these in one of the rooms next heating season. For a bit of experimentation. You can get the feel for having a radiator before you spend lots of money.
https://www.zoro.com/dayton-electric-oi ... /G2030992/
They take for ever to get warmed up but once hot they will stay at whatever temp you want

[1918ColonialRevival]

I have circulated hot water heat with cast iron radiators in every room that are original to the house. I wouldn't have any other type of heat. Once the radiators heat up, they retain heat for a long time. My boiler is oil-fired, but there are other alternatives if heating oil is hard to get in your area.

Any competent plumber should be able to set up a circulated hot water heating system, as all it is is a supply line and a return line with radiators in parallel between the two lines. The trick is finding radiators that weren't damaged when they were removed. Also, a radiator must be sized correctly for a room. If it's too small, it won't heat the room adequately. If it's too large, it will run you out of the room. You also want to make sure you have a boiler that is adequately sized and not too large or small for your application.

There were many books printed from the 1880s through the 1930s that are devoted to this type of heat and contain all information including setup, sizing, etc. A few books I recommend are William Donaldson's Modern Hot Water Heating, Steam, and Gas Fitting (1906); Alfred G. King's Practical Steam and Hot Water Heating and Ventilation (1917), and Charles Geiser's Care and Repair of the Plumbing and Heating System in Your Home (1927). None of these books are rare and can usually be found on abebooks, alibris, or sometimes ebay.

It's important to make sure the system is balanced and that all the trapped air has been bled from it. Otherwise, it will not heat evenly. I always balance a system by starting with the radiator farthest away from the boiler on the top level and work my way back toward it.

[Manalto]

James, why not try one of these...

I've had a DeLonghi oil-filled electric radiator for years and it has served me well at a few addresses. It sure came in handy last winter in my unheated kitchen when the mercury went down into the 20s and, one night, into the high teens. (It's also good for defrosting the refrigerator. I make a tent with a tarp over the open door, with the heater running underneath.)

I've had circulated hot water heat at some of those previous addresses and it seemed to me to be a pleasant way to heat a space. My question here was more about the efficiency and practicality of installing such a system in 2019 in the Gulf Coast climate.

I have circulated hot water heat with cast iron radiators in every room that are original to the house. I wouldn't have any other type of heat.

Thank you for this. Aside from telling me what I wanted to hear, it validates what I've been casually observing for years. My earliest memory of such a system was at my grandparents' house. To be thrifty, they kept their house pretty cool and yet it was always comfortable. The temperature in the house was even; there were no drafts or chilly spots. My grandfather's large collection of African violets released some humidity into the air. If they didn't want to heat a room, they simply closed off the radiator and shut the door. It's not rocket surgery.

Any competent plumber should be able to set up a circulated hot water heating system...

I just got off the phone with a plumber who comes highly recommended by someone I trust. He said that he'd be able to install a radiator system but warned me that parts would probably have to come from up north, as will the radiators themselves.

There were many books...

Thanks also for this. I bought a copy of the King book (the 1928 edition). I noticed that the books you recommended are considered worthy enough to be in reprint. I went for an authentically old volume though, not just for the groovy cover.

It's important to make sure the system is balanced...

I'll understand what this means when I read my book! (I hope.)

It may be overkill for your southern heating requirements but best to speak with a local professional or two ?

You're right on both counts. The good news is that the system won't be terribly expensive to install or operate, whereas running electric and gas space heaters is. It's really nice to have a toasty-warm house during those four months (November-February) when the nights are damp and chilly.

It's the Gulf Coast so most of the year I'll need cooling, not heating. How about if I run ice-water through the system to cool off the house?

ETA: I found this: https://www.theguardian.com/notesandque ... 34,00.html

[phil]

I had thought about trying to cool my house using city water. probably a no no but AC's suck a lot of power.
I tried putting a couple of heater cores in a box and hooked hoses up as an experiment. Ive got a bunch of old car rads.. I think it would work in principle. I didn't really run the thing long enough to give it a good test.

one thing I'd think of is how fast you want it to get warm. If you go to work and leave the house no point heating while you are out, but if you are retired and home all the time it's different. in floor heat and radiators arent' good at reheating the home quickly, so maybe not so great for a weekend cabin that you visit for weekends for example but they are nice if you are home a lot and want that constant heat.

lighting is another factor. If you leave them on lots they contribute, convert to LED and you gain on power savings but loose all the BTU's
so while they are advertised as cost saving. It's only a half truth. In summer it's different, then they fight the AC.

unless you have an old heater that has a leaky heat exchanger or not vented right the smoke shouldn't be entering. You can do a test for carbon monoxide. I was just speaking with a gas fitter friend of mine and he said he'd come check my heater and noted that it is illegal to install a heating system now that is not a certain efficiency. but said like with mine , his is from the 50's and working fine still.
as long as it is working right I dont see any reason to think of it as a health issue. If you have forced air you probably filter the air at the same time so that would help so far as health is concerned.

if you go buy some old boiler, check if it can be installed and pass code or you could get stuck on that, but depends on local laws perhaps.

can an electric gas or modern electric hot water tank be used?

I like the nostalgic look of the old radiators, I can see why people like them for that reason. you'd have to give up space though.

[1918ColonialRevival]

Your plumber is right that the boiler would probably have to be sourced from a little further up north. There are still many manufacturers building them today and they are available with oil, gas, propane, or electricity for fuel. Of the four, I'm partial to heating oil, but it may not be readily available in your area (seems like heating oil is more of a Mid Atlantic and Northeast thing). Gas is second best in my opinion. I would think there should be a heating supplier in Jackson, Montgomery, or Birmingham who could order one if you couldn't find a closer supplier.

Radiator unions (the fittings that attach the radiators to the pipes) can be ordered online now. If you can find salvaged radiators in your area, then someone has to stock fittings for them, so there should be a source that's at least somewhat local. Some plumbing suppliers around here have them, but they might have to come from a heating or industrial supplier.

One word about salvaged radiators. See if you can test them for leaks before you take them. It's more of a problem up north, but if water is allowed to sit in them and it freezes, the expansion can crack the radiator housing, much the way improperly mixed antifreeze can freeze and cause an engine block to crack. It might not hurt the radiator if it's only happened a couple of times, but if it was pulled from a building that's been abandoned the last 25 years and has seen plenty of freeze/thaw cycles, well, you get the idea.

[Manalto]

The house has gas, so that option is a possibility. I haven't noticed heating oil in the southeast; I think you're right.

I found a radiator for a good price on Craigslist for the 50s addition to the house. The seller told me they replaced it with a larger radiator because it wasn't big enough for their kitchen. I'm reasonably confident that it won't leak - he assured me it doesn't - but that's a good point about making sure they're water-tight.

I'd like to find taller, more ornate (or, at least, old-timey) radiators for the old part of the house.

...one thing I'd think of is how fast you want it to get warm.

When the house is cold, it takes a full day for it to warm up. Those plaster walls are like stone; you can feel the cold coming off of them. So whatever heating system is used, it's a potato/potahto because until the walls warm up the house will still feel cold. It would be connected to a thermostat, so when I'm out of the house for the day it would be easy enough to set it at a lower temperature and raise the temperature when occupied. When the house is closed up and everything turned off, my understanding is that the system should be blown out or antifreeze added just in case of sustained low temperatures. It can happen; my water pipes froze in the winter of 2017-18. It's not fun being under the house with a heat gun in 25° weather.

Another thing I'd like to look into is running off a hot-water heater rather than a boiler, if the system would accept the lower water temperatures.

[mjt]

I have a mixture of heat sources in my house. Originally the only heat source was coal-burning fireplaces, though at some later point, central heat was installed. Initially, that was an oil-fired boiler with hot-water radiators. I think the previous owners converted it to a natural gas-fired boiler. We have
- cast iron radiators on the first and second floor
- in-floor hydronic radiant in the kitchen and master bath tapped into the main boiler, each room is its own zone
- in-floor electric in the "kids" bath

I wish we had separate zones for each of the first and second floor. The first floor is a bit too cool and the second is a bit too warm. Or I'm going to have to mess with the individual radiator valves to try to balance it manually...

Given so many new homes are doing in-floor hydronic, it shouldn't be that hard to source parts that would also work for traditional cast iron radiators. I'm thinking mostly heat sources and expansion tanks here.

We also looked a little at geothermal as a heat source, but couldn't get the payback to go positive in my lifetime. I suspect it would be even worse for you down south...

[phil]

if you dig into it the fittings are likely standard. with higher presures they might use something like JIC fittings. for exampole there is some info here and you could dig deeper.
http://www.apexfluid.co.uk/technical/thread-id.php

I usually go to a hose shop for hydraulic fittings and have them crimp them on , for heat maybe it's different. most standard plumbing uses national pipe threads. these are tapered threads so rather than using a seat they get tighter as you go due to the taper. for something involving pressure , like steam then they might have a different fitting but I bet if you delve into it you'll find it pretty standard at least unless it is somethign super old and for some reason weird.. like old cars and machiens from england prior to about '53 or so they used whitworth threads and that is uncommon until you try working on an old land rover or something.
there is a bit of info here and you could delve deeper of course.
http://www.apexfluid.co.uk/technical/thread-id.php

I think it might be wise to compare your cost of efficiency. this may vary by area as it will depend on how much you;d pay for natural gas, oil electricity, propane , etc.
to figure it out you need to work out the cost per BTU for each type of fuel. You can probably utilize online calculators to help and you could refer to any bills you have.

with my electric bill they seem to have two rates. Its cheaper if I use less, but once I exceed a certain number of killiwatt hours then the price jumps. it's to encourage low use.

most houses use natural gas. I would assume that's cheapest but doing a comparison might show by how much and if it is significant then that may affect your decision.

in some colder climates they use heat tape that pugs in so you could wrap any problem areas and feed it power if you feel it's in danger of freezing rather than the heat gun.