Guess the Estimate

[Texas_Ranger]

One guy quoted but wouldn't write up the quote unless he got the job...on the spot! Another bidder didn't quote but simply sent a bill which had to be 50% pre-paid, by credit card, before we could be told when the job would be scheduled!

After the "Big flood of Doomsday 2012" (fire department pouring 10 000 l of water into the attic office two floors above where I live on 21 Dec 2012, partially flooding two other apartments with smelly, toxic water) we had several flooring contractors give estimates for removing 100-year-old oak floors intact, drying them out and reinstalling them. My uncle, who took care of the final decisions, picked the lowest bidder. When my parents were unhappy with the work he did they tried contacting one of the other bidders, who had seemed very knowledgeable, about just doing the work in our own apartment. When my dad called that contractor he immediately blew up because he felt cheated and thought he was somehow entitled to get the entire contract because writing a bid had been a whole day's work and he'd done so only in anticipation of being paid!

I mean how crazy is that? Getting a bid doesn't constitute any kind of obligation, especially not in construction! It's a real pity because I think this guy would have done an outstanding job and saved me a lot of work (I received 1200 Euros compensation from the insurance company for doing the work myself, a process that took me over a month since I could only do it on nights and weekends) but I don't think we'll ever be able to hire him because he'll go ballistic every time he hears our last name.

Pricing is something a few contractors around here seem to have serious issues with, mostly electricians. They calculate their rates so low that it barely covers their costs and make a living off the materials. Unfortunately the materials are the one thing every customer can compare prices on because the very same stuff is sold at every DIY store. How is a customer supposed to understand why the electrician then slaps 100% onto the retail price? To me that's simply poor advertising!

Then there's the totally crazy kind, contractors who complain bitterly about other contractors charging such outrageous rates, "If they get €100 per hour and I earn €30, how on earth am I supposed to be able to afford hiring them?", completely ignoring the fact that a) their own rates are much higher than their income and b) they work 47 weeks a year but only need to hire other contractors for a few hours or days. I think that's more of an issue with employees than with self-employed folks though. The latter should have at least a modicum of economic understanding in order to survive.

[Jeepnstein]

I generally don't haggle when I hire a contractor. I can usually come up with a fairly good estimate on my own. The AC project got blown out by about 15% because I didn't figure duct work correctly but I at least understood what the scope of the work was going to be. Same with our roof, which came in under what I thought it would be. Right now I'm having concrete poured out back and it was no questions asked because the guy is a stinking artist and I knew I was going to get the "good buddy" discount. Yes, I know a lot about the building trades but I play dumb when dealing with a pro. I let them educate me further.

What I've learned from my friends in the mechanics trade is that when you do an "estimate" you have to build in an Aggravation Tax some times. Back when I worked as a mechanic I had to assume that each and every little problem the car I was going to repair was somehow going to become my problem in the mind of the owner. "It's easy, all I need are these stuck bolts extracted from the cylinder heads. You don't even need to pull the heads." As soon as a customer said something like that the price went up by a huge margin. Ever change someone's tires and have them call six months later wanting to know what happened to their anti-freeze? Is it fair to everyone? Nope. And some potentially good customers wind up paying dearly because of the unknown. That at least gives you the option to revise the final bill down if things go well. And I've had potential customers who I flatly refused to even discuss doing any work based on the initial conversation. The flip side is I had a few who I would drop everything for even when it meant bringing a first date along on a service call for someone stuck in a parking lot.

The key for a homeowner is to develop a good working relationship with a contractor. Once you are working from a position of trust the price becomes more realistic. Once they quit viewing you as a job and see you as a client then you're golden.

[Willa]

When my parents were unhappy with the work he did they tried contacting one of the other bidders, who had seemed very knowledgeable, about just doing the work in our own apartment. When my dad called that contractor he immediately blew up because he felt cheated and thought he was somehow entitled to get the entire contract because writing a bid had been a whole day's work and he'd done so only in anticipation of being paid!

I mean how crazy is that? Getting a bid doesn't constitute any kind of obligation, especially not in construction! .

Google "Narcissistic rage". There's no logical/successful/reasonable way to deal with a personality disorder like that.

[Willa]

What I've learned from my friends in the mechanics trade is that when you do an "estimate" you have to build in an Aggravation Tax some times... As soon as a customer said something like that the price went up by a huge margin.

And I've had potential customers who I flatly refused to even discuss doing any work based on the initial conversation. The flip side is I had a few who I would drop everything for even when it meant bringing a first date along on a service call for someone stuck in a parking lot.

The key for a homeowner is to develop a good working relationship with a contractor. Once you are working from a position of trust the price becomes more realistic. Once they quit viewing you as a job and see you as a client then you're golden.

It's a damned if I do, damned if I don't situation.

I refuse to play dumb or helpless about my property, or any other charade. If some contractor feels uncomfortable with a homeowner who wants to be a knowledgeable participant in what services they are buying, then that is not the contractor for me.

Screening clients is important for anyone doing the work, yes. https://clientsfromhell.net/ is aimed at people in the graphic design field, but the posts are about clients with unrealistic expectations, terrible client behaviour, getting stiffed on payments, confusing communication. Every contractor has their own variation on this client dynamic, I'll bet.

It's like a game of chicken. I want a competent contractor with good judgement, who understands old houses. Contractor wants a reasonable client who will pay and not micromanage. I want a contractor who listens and respects what I am saying. Ethical contractor wants a job where the parameters of the job are clearly defined(v.s. Shyster who bulldozes over stated boundaries and holds the client hostage with unfinished work the homeowner did not explicitly consent to piled on for double the written quote). I'm happy to pay for good work, but will never be happy about gouging and/or tall tales about the work required or work done.

For women, there is the extra burden of finding a competent contractor who is not condescending, who does not set off alarm bells with inappropriate comments or behaviour. There is nothing as disgusting or unsettling as being sexually harassed by a dude you are paying.

Ugh, now to start this process all over again.

[phil]

I'd just have a phone meeting with him and let him know you have some concerns and some solutions.

first off does he have insurance? the fact that he's doing funny things with taxes might also mean he's working with no insurance. that's illegal and you dont' want his guy falling on your property and going after you.

next question is he bonded? or are you letting people in at random without them being bonded? maybe that's OK if it is one or two guys but if it is a crew you dont' give access to your house to people you don't know

who will be working on my house? if he will be there for the duration of repairs then fine. If he is planning to be not present during some of the repairs then you want to deal with the worker not him. You can prevent things going in circles by simply stating if you aren't going to be onsite during all the repairs then send the guy who will be working on it to meet you. that seems obvious but sometimes contractors seem ok then send their flunky workers to do the work, after they have your down payment you are up a creek with that.

when will the work be done? if it takes longer is there a clause with a reduced rate or how does that work? , you want start times for each day so you aren't getting put off by other work. it happens a lot that they quote , start , go away and leave you to get frustrated enough to sign off on it.

you need and deserve an explanation of what he fears will make the job larger. if the studs below the window are rotted , what happens? if the rafter tails are too rotted to nail to will you sister some short 2x4 or what? sort that out before he begins. If he wants an hour or two of pay to deconstruct then that's ok. he can contract on that.

dont' give him more than one job at a time. start with one job and you can get a quote. then I'd ask how long this will take and work out the hourly rate from that. if it seems fair tell him you will pay him that hourly rate. tell him all materials are cost plus, you'll buy the materials and you want anything left over to remain on site.

fair point about being called out on a minimum daily charge. If he plans to charge a minimum I'd agree to that and give him at least a days work but you have no reason to give the guy more than one job at a time it just confuses things. It's not to your advantage.

let him prove himself on the first job. make them comfortable and watch them but try not to interfere unnecessarily. be available at a distance. you could say up front you wan to be called for decisions and for a meeting twice daily or something.

blasting music, cleaning up what about leaded paint etc you can discusss these things. You dont' want to upset your neighbors or they will call the city and then you are into inspections... do you want it inspected by the city? maybe it is to your advantage to have inspections maybe not.. there are two sides to that.

If it were me I'd drill into how long, hom many man hours in the estimate? how much of that is guesswork? is he padding the quote for unforseen circumstances , if he says well it could be that I have to ... I'd stop him righ there .. how many hours to deconstruct to give a more firm time estimate..

I'd let him know you are willing to pay a fair labor rate for a tradesman but you want to meet that tradesman. you aren't paying tradesman rates for his son in laws kid or something..
you can work fairly with him on a per hour basis , if he won't allow that and is strict about it being on a quote then I'd let him go as then you know he's just padding the quote. If he's going to treat you fairly he will recognize your concerns and give you a quote, maybe just on the sill and you can go froward from there if you have a good working relationship by then , if not you'll be glad you didn't give him a job worth thousands...

I'd first ask for a quote on deconstruction of the sill area or just do that yourself and call him to do the window and give you a firm quote on the sill replacement. a time estimate should be part of that job. if they finish early then you can have some other jobs for them to make the balance of their day.. tell him you aren't going to gamble on that. You will pay a fair rate by the hour.

You can ask him his trade. and you can ask for his ticket before work commences. and if he doesn't have one then at least you know up front he isn't a tradesman he is a handyman. There are good handymen without tickets but they shouldn't go around professing to be tradesmen. If he tells you he's a carpenter he better have a ticket as a carpenter. If he's caught in that lie dont' let him move forward.. If he is an independent handyman and he is honest about that then OK fair.. but allow for that in what you pay. If you took your cat to a vet and then they said their rate is 100 / hr youd be disappointed if you then found he wasn't a vet so why would that be any different if you call a carpenter who isn't really a carpenter?

You aren't a general contractor so dont' try to act and hire like one , you are a one shot customer. dont get screwed. because if there are issues the only recourse you have is court and that's a PITA you both dont' want and you both know it. you should work out the details so you know and agree on the labor rate and then if there are decisions about how far is good enough the contract isn't binding those decisions. You can explain how that is a gamble upfront and refuse the quote. Otherwise you are taking a big chance that this will go all wrong, and as a homeowner you have very little recourse.

changing boards is definitely not specific enough. are they pine? fir? knot free fir? full dimension or are they 1.5" thick ? what is he nailing into ? what about the gutters? what will you do if the rafters are rotted , replace them? sister them? shorten the overhang? this can go all sideways !
will the gutters stay on if they plug up and have 300 lbs of water in them?

[Willa]

Phil - I am not touching this contractor with someone else's 10 foot pole.

Even if his price wasn't scandalous, there are enough red flags to be wary.

You raise some good points. I am big on having things in writing, that both people sign so there is no ambiguity. I also really like definitions and specifics so there can be no misunderstandings.

[phil]

Phil - I am not touching this contractor with someone else's 10 foot pole.

Even if his price wasn't scandalous, there are enough red flags to be wary.

You raise some good points. I am big on having things in writing, that both people sign so there is no ambiguity. I also really like definitions and specifics so there can be no misunderstandings.

right. I think a lot of issues come up because contractors try to estimate with unknown conditions so they quote a bit high and hope things happen faster so he can make a profit.

If you give a little job you reduce the risk a lot and you can see how they do. nothing wrong with letting him know you want someone to do these other projects but you are breaking it down to avoid these issues.

the repairs might be different on the gable ends as opposed to nailing to the rafter tails. If he is any good he can explain in a bit of detail what he would expect to have to replace or sister , or what his approach is likely to be and at what points there may be decisions which will affect time and price. Its fair enough if you decide to go the cheap and quick or more costly and just OK route. You might be able to express that in details.. I'd try to avoid terms like doing a good job or a great job as they aren't specific terms.. things like are you going to butt joint the fascia board or replace the whole thing? those are important details.

the chat does have an effect. maybe it's best to just keep quiet and let him do the quoting and such and as he speaks to you and as questions come up he will pick up on the fact that you know something about construction. maybe if you leave exactly how much you know out of it then he will probably feel he is dealing with someone with some degree of expertise without seeming like you are going to micro manage him up to the size of every nail he uses.

Just think of the sill, it is probably closer to full dimension than he can buy from home depot. is he going to have someone mill a piece in the old dimensions or shim the difference? the appearance is different, old houses had thicker sills. What wood? if you want edge grain knot free fir like the house probably had originally then you need to at least agree on what he's using.. another option might be to use just good modern fir 2x6 and maybe do a glue up to get to the thickness dimension you want? What about the slope of the sill? it should slope away 4 degrees or so. did the old one? if you wanted you could build up the edge to make it appear like a regular full dimension sill. or you could let that go and have it thinner if it isn't an issue for you. these things need to be discussed at some point.

It isn't easy to trim stuff "to full dimension" If that's what you want. and painting all 4 sides, what he uses , is there primer , there are a lot of variables.. you might write down a list of questions and go over them during the quote and it sounds like you will get more quotes.

If you aren't all hooked into a "contract" I think you are more able to discuss how long things will take and what materials etc during the job. I think you are willing to pay a fair price you just want to be treated fairly and you deserve that, as does the contractor you hire. Going hourly relieves you both from the unknowns. Lots of contractors want to fog the issue of the total number of hours. I think you are likely to be happy if you just get the correct number of hours that you are paying for and the materials are what they are. is he charging you travel to go pick stuff up? I dont think that's unreasonable. I'd say as long as he is out of his house and working for you then that's chargeable time. upping the costs of materials isn't fair game on such a little contract but it might affect what he charges for an hourly rate. so fair enough..You just want all that clear upfront.

There are lots of women going into trades. I wouldn't give that a moments thought. You have who you have available and if a woman shows up and she knows her stuff and has some experience it shouldn't make a difference. These industries are male dominated but you have to decide from the pool of people you have to choose from. little by little that tide will change.

[Willa]

There are lots of women going into trades. I wouldn't give that a moments thought. You have who you have available and if a woman shows up and she knows her stuff and has some experience it shouldn't make a difference. These industries are male dominated but you have to decide from the pool of people you have to choose from. little by little that tide will change.

Oh Phil.

As a man, you will never understand the contempt that women are treated with.

Rebecca Solnit's excellent essay is a good place to start :

https://www.guernicamag.com/rebecca-sol ... ngs-to-me/

I'm not going to sit back and shut up and not ask questions to make someone I am potentially hiring feel better ! They want my money, I want the work I am paying for. If they can't explain what they are going to do, why they are doing it, what they are going to use to do it with, some potential bumps in the road that I should be aware of, when they can start, and how long this will take - and what this will cost - then other discussions about subcontractors, insurance, travelling time, etc. become irrelevant as they won't work for me.

As a woman, it is a risk every time that I let an unknown man into my house. While most men are NOT predators or deviants, a few are. These guys don't come with marks on their forehead. I would certainly hold a woman in the trades to the same standards of skill, competency and respectful behaviour. However, the chances of being asked very personal questions, having remarks made about my appearance, being asked on unwelcome dates, having to suffer through lewd jokes, or being sexually assaulted are statistically very much lower from a woman, even one who is also a complete stranger .

[phil]

My comment about "chat" wasn't meant to be sexual in nature at all. What I meant was that if he arrives and you go into great depth of all the details he may feel like he is working for a know it all who is going to micro manage him.. Another way to approach it is to only ask the pertinent questions..

While you are sizing him up he is also sizing you up and if you seem to be the type who will be running out every half hour to help him make decisions he may quote a bit higher thinking that he will have a lot of interference that may slow him down.

what I meant was that when he speaks to you terms will come up , say he mentions parts of the roof , well you know the terminology so you couldn't help but reply and for example you probably wouldn't be asking him what a fascia board is. But many wouldn't even know the term.

I'm pretty straightforward in dealing with people. I will normally notice and pay attention to nuances and my character is such that I will want to reveal what I know. I'm probably more sensitive to subtitles than some others and maybe some of that is being Canadian. Of course I am generalizing and that doesn't fit when you examine person to person.. but we are polite and tend to notice how others feel even in business transactions. Ive done lots of phone troubleshooting and I'd say people from New York City are often quite direct by comparison , but again generalizing.. people in smaller places are often more friendly and direct and people in cities are more "politically correct" of course with any generalization there are many exceptions that may prove it false..

Some are much more bold an the last thing they consider is peoples feelings in a business deal.

Others keep their cards closer and by not saying too much they are in effect keeping the cards closer. The contractor doesn't know exactly what you know he just knows ( for example) that you at least know what a fascia board is but he'd know that at least you know that much and he'd have to start asking you more in depth questions to reveal your true depth of knowledge on the matter which he may or may not do.

Now if he started asking questions and you had to stop him and ask "what is a fascia board?" then he'd know he is dealing with a homeowner with little construction knowledge and then he may think he can take advantage of that situation but you do know that stuff so you can carry on a pretty good technical conversation from that standpoint.

what I meant by this isn't anything to do with the sex of either of you.
maybe it's something Ive been thinking more of.. a couple more examples...

I was at the bank trying to remortgage my place after dealing with them for some 15 years we built up a bit of a rapport and I said look. I'm not going to beat around the bush.. I like dealing with this bank, we have a great working relationship and I want you to give me a good rate. I dont' really want to go to every bank to try to bargain the rate but if you appreciate my business you will offer me a rate that is a good one. I said If I start comparing rates I will also move all my business with the mortgage to the one who gives me the best deal and that's just business. He was surprised I would be so forward but I was only honest.. I noticed that even a year later he remembered me saying that. Although it sort of came off as a threat it was fair. I guess I thought over that and wondered if it was the best thing to say

As it worked out BTW they offered me the posted rate so I played the game and bounced it back saying look I'm a good customer and I know you can beat your posted rates by a little for customers you value.. then they had to delay a month to talk to the manager and we have another meeting this week and hopefully they will do better , even 1/4 percent is a difference.

I had a friend that was quite smart and he came from a family of money. we spent a lot of time talking about life and things and I came to notice that although he asks many questions to others, he also reveals very little about himself. I began to think about the human nature of that and how I had created a situation where I had revealed so much and he hadn't.. there was nothing to worry about it just seemed a bit strange that he kept so much in although he was very sociable..
Some people just wear their hearts on their sleeve and reveal a lot more than others.. In business there is probably more to that as it affects business dealings and the way people react.. and maybe others with "business sense" or business training would be able to analyze that differently than I. I guess that's sort of what I meant..

As far as being hit on or feeling awkward working with men that may come into your home and use that as an opportunity to hit on you.. that is creepy. Hopefully you don't get people like that in and I can see how that could have the potential to mess up your working relationship and part way through a contract yes that would be bad. As a man that is probably about the furthest thing from my mind when selecting a contractor.. a pretty woman contractor is feasible but so few are that I hadn't considered that too much but Ive never felt threatened in that way and maybe as a woman doing the hiring that is more of a concern.. good point.

I met a lady that was having some house inspections done,, she would intentionally dress up all sexy She also drank a lot and maybe she thought she'd use her sexuality to win the inspector over.. lol.. I bet she also drank a little extra for added courage or extra aggressiveness... I wasn't there for the inspection.
It wildly backfired because he just threw back a bunch of changes that were obviously things that could have gone through and it cost her a lot to make those changes.. I think she tried to outsmart him and he's probably seen stuff like that and didn't play into her game at all. I think she thought if she dressed a certain way she'd be hard for a man to refuse. What surprised me most is that he picked up on it and it seemed to me that she got quite a bit more scrutiny than she hoped for It was like trying to flirt out of a traffic ticket I guess I saw the resulting list and some of the things were picky to say the least.. and expensive.

I tried to read the link, I read most of it. the woman seems to have some issues with men not listening to her about her book, Maybe she is super good looking and they get distracted.. Physical attractions can play on decisions and emotions and how attention is played but you cant' really change that effect as it relates to animal instincts that we all have. As time moves forward we are becoming more politically correct and things have changed as to what not to say especially in a work atmosphere, but there will always be differences in how men and women think and a lot of that probably does relate to sexual feelings and reactions that have evolved through millions of years and conditions of society. In some societies a woman hiring a man would be more unusual. Here it wouldn't really be unusual but the contractor might originate from a place where it is less common for women to contract building renos to men? I suppose for some men then working for a woman might produce some unusual feelings. If I were a contractor I dont' think I'd try to treat anyone differently and I am used to working with women with equal technical abilities, but others think differently and maybe I would react differently in taking a contract from a woman or a man.. interesting to think of..

[Lily left the valley]

Willa, I get both your frustration of dealing with men who are stuck in that mindset, as well as being new to an area and not knowing where to start making good connections.

What I did here in Gardner was first ask my realtor for recommendations, and then when it was apparent the inspector I chose from our realtor's suggestions wasn't one of those doltish types, asked him for the same. We haven't had a chance due to finances yet to follow up on some of them, but I'm also still exploring more recommendations when chance allows with other connections I've fallen into. One of the things I'm looking for is overlap with names, and I'm starting to see that.

What I have done in the past is ask the folks at the permit office who are the horror stories. They will sometimes be very glad to mention those, even if they don't want to talk about the good ones because favoritism issues can arise. I know that doesn't make sense, but most really don't like citing homeowners. So they'd rather the crappy bastards go out of business.

I honestly feel really lucky here. I've found my goto guys both at the lumberyard and the plumbing & electrical supply store. The one general hardware store also has some good eggs. The lumberyard also has women that work there, and they are not all clerks, so that may be why there. The P&E is all male staffed that I've seen so far, so I'm just happy to have made such a connection. The hardware store, a lot of them are young, and perhaps that's the difference--I really don't know. They all treat me like a human being with a brain that works. The fella at the P&E actually said when I walked in the door today, "There she is," like he just had a feeling I'd be around again. I brought him a puzzle today, and learned a few new things thanks to the plumbing snafu at the apartment when I was trying to take the shower head extender off. I really like him too because he never bristles when I ask about pricing--he seems rather content to work with someone who buys within a budget. The lumberyard guy and I haven't run into that as much, so I can't say with him for sure yet.

This has not always been the case in many places we have lived over the years. I think I've also mentioned my frustration at a certain Home Despot we frequented when we were working on the studio where any time I asked a worker there a question, they would reply to the closest male nearby--who sometimes was a stranger to me. When we've dealt with dolts like that anywhere, Sean will point to me and say "She knows more than I do. Talk to her." Sometimes, that works, sometimes they persist. Thankfully, Gardner still has private shops so I don't need to rely on a big box here. (Technically, the two hardware stores are chains, but not boxes--one chain is founded from the next town over.)

With tradesfolk, I've found that less intelligent men tend to be the dolts more often than not. There are a few rare gems I've found where they're not the brightest bulbs, but they are gender blind, and happy to deal with someone who is a no nonsense type.

I have, however, been considering hiring an architect for a project down the road, and have been trying to comb through sites of locals for one that has the "just right" feel. I am a bit worried that I might get a dolt even if they are smart enough to be an architect.

The hard part when you live in a small area is that when you find the good ones, sometimes they have long waiting lists. I've found that they are always worth it--and they often will still wiggle some time for you if something is an emergency.

I can't recall if you've mentioned that there is a historical house society where you are. That's another place you could ask for recommendations if so.

If I were you, when you call those other folks for the jobs you want done, I'd specifically ask how much experience they have working on older homes (and what was done---gut or restore?), and if they are comfortable with you wanting to be verbally walked through the process so that you'll feel more confident in their work. Some places you might even be able to ask for a flat fee one hour consult too. I think if they'd be willing to do any of that, that could point to someone who'd be a better fit for you.

It sounds like the problem dolt you won't be hiring is the kind who wants to just get the job, do the job, and go home with more pay in his pocket. Even if he is a nickle dimer, I myself don't work well with folks who consider what they do only a job. They have to at least like what they do in the heartfelt sense--not that I'm expecting poetry or what have you. Otherwise they tend to be testy when anything happens during the gig that is outside of their tunnel vision path.

Best of luck finding a better person to work with!