Guess the Estimate

[Lily left the valley]

{snip}While you are sizing him up he is also sizing you up and if you seem to be the type who will be running out every half hour to help him make decisions he may quote a bit higher thinking that he will have a lot of interference that may slow him down.

I'm going to add my own "Oh, Phil" here.

Phil, you know that I respect you a lot. You also know that we have similar wandering mindsets. You also know from our PMs that I am not a traditionalist in many senses, however, we have been there and done that. We have even tried the back off and the defers and what have you until we're blue in the face, and it never gives us the result we wanted. I know in your mind, you weren't speaking of those suggestions with our gender in mind, but when we of that gender have it hammered into us even in this day and age that women are supposed to do those sorts of things around men regardless of our human temperament, it's like rubbing salt in a wound. I know you would have made the same suggestion had a male asked--it's just one of those damn things you can't dance around and be honest about.

Some of your counters are on point and absolutely valid. However, every time you wander into the "pretty" bits, that's where you lose us. Just because someone is good looking--regardless of gender, I do not let them get away with murder, nor do I assume they are an idiot. Are there folks who do as you describe? Yes. Unfortunately, when that happens, we have to steer them back to sensibility. I have actually said to one person who was doing such..."Pretend I am a man. Now answer me again." He was a bit flustered, but thankfully he saw my point and things went smoothly after that.

As another female who has been through what Willa has, it really is hard to help men understand because I know from experience that it seems we are either too touchy about it, or too forward in our approaches. I have still failed to come up with a relative experience that men could face to cause that spark of "Oh! I get what's bugging you."

For me, I am so blunt when I talk to tradesfolk that I have insulted some. The good ones (and I don't mean the divas), will work through misunderstandings when they occur, and the bad ones never do. Even if they aren't gender biased, and it's about feeling that I'm trying to intellect challenge them, the good ones still can still come to an understanding even when we don't agree.

A related story, to give you an idea of the types of sting we can face...a small theatre I worked stagecraft for hire was looking for a new tech manager. I applied. The nearing elderly aged gay man who ran the theatre pulled me aside and explained that although he would like to hire me, he couldn't because the men would never respect me and it would cause too many problems. Yes, some gay men have that odd hatred for all things women. He was not one of them. There was no malice behind his explanation, but there also was not a steady resignation of reality either. He was just telling me how it was in his mind. Did he have a point? Yes. When I later was the lighting designer for a Nutcracker performance there, the same men I had worked side by side with (and after as well) tried to pull a slow down on me. I had a devil of a time fighting through that. Yes, it was a fight. I hadn't even asked for anything above what I knew they should be doing--and my plots (drafts of the design) were crystal clear. Yet I also believe that had he hired me as the tech manager, I would have done the same--but I'll never know. Oh, and for what it's worth...the guy he did hire was a moron, even if he was a nice guy. The guys walked all over him after he was hired.

[GibsonGM]

A bad tradesman is a bad tradesman, no denying that.

What really puts a hair across a GOOD tradesman is a potential customer we see as condenscending, minimizing the skill needed to do our job, thinking they're better than us. Better educated; better decision makers, estimators....doesn't matter if you're a woman or man, you make me feel that way, I don't need your job. You're just going to keep doing it once the job starts ("you" = potential customer, not you, Lily). I met 100s of people like this, men AND women, when I grew up in MA; this is rampant there. I was a mason thru college - the attitude (elitist) sickened me...I was more intelligent AND better-educated than nearly all of them. I know what the "f-you estimate" is, tho here I simply say "well, uuhhh, looks like you have it covered, let me call you later" and walk. I'm afraid they may ACCEPT the f you estimate, then I'd be stuck working for them! Income has nothing to do with it, either.

Not talking "intellectually challenging"...most tradesmen (but not all) that I know enjoy that a woman can talk about the job, as it makes it VERY difficult to get someone to understand WTH we're trying to say if they are ignorant. I mean the men, too. I worked with an executive director at a historic place last year, she really understood the effort needed to do a project - right down to the southern exposure and being in the sun after 10 AM. ANY customer who knows my job without wanting to be The Boss is great, always have been.

It is the dilettante that will make you crazy. The people who gladly pay the mechanic $500 without question but bemoan a carpenter their day's pay. The ones who've never spent a day with their hands in sh*t fixing a plumbing waste line, LOL, but who will tell you what it's like.

Perhaps you ARE 'the victim of misogyny', Lily, I can't say. But it would surprise me if it was more than 1x - the vast majority of working men (and women) WANT the job, they want to have an easy project to make good money on. Or a tough project to retire on. The losers tend to fade off rather soon in this business (once you have a rep as being rude to ANYONE, out you go). The more I look around, the more I see that EVERYONE is a victim, so it's very hard to tell. I could claim victim status too if I wanted, I bet...what I am getting at is not that there are no victims, but that perhaps once in a while things aren't happening because you're a (insert thing here: gay, woman, immigrant....), but maybe because you're a jerk, LOL!
<again, not "YOU", the you of the general sense>

I've been a jerk, too! Once or twice, ha ha. And even while learning my trade, when younger (but not a misogynist, just too dumb to understand that a customer "suggestion" is actually a Request, etc.)

If I come across a customer who is an "AH", I let it ride, let it roll....c-ya. Same with if I want to hire someone, say a mechanic. Off to the next one who will get my money, a reward for being "normal". End of story.

[Jeepnstein]

I'm going to post once more on this thing and then let it die.

Here's a perspective of someone who used to deal with men and women customers daily in a very busy garage. They were usually very different in their world view and how you had to approach them. People love/hate their cars. And mechanics some times got to see people at their worst. You try to not take any of it personally.

Men are fairly simple creatures. The car is broke. We need to change this part to fix the car. That will cost $xxx. It will be done in two days. We'll call you if there's any bad news. Now go away so I can get to work. Not my problem if you have to ride your kids' bike to work for a while.

Women? You had to take some extra time to let them tell you how this mechanical failure was effecting their daily lives. And they wanted to know why the part failed. Someone had to be accountable. And you had to spell out what could also be going wrong with their car at the same time to prevent the dreaded Bad News phone call. Now of course we didn't charge more for the therapy session since most times it was a fairly pleasant exchange and didn't slow down the process a bit. Women tend to believe that feelings matter for something. And they want to be taken seriously, which I can understand.

We had a couple of guys in the shop who were stinking genius mechanics. They also had about as much success dealing with women customers as they did the other women in their lives, as in none at all. I never saw it as some kind of misogyny. In fact they would easily go the extra mile just to make sure they were pleased with the results. It was just that men and women are very different and for good reason. If men didn't have to please women our society would have stopped developing some time shortly after the invention of beer.

A good relationship between a contractor and client is a two way street. And some times it just doesn't click. There's nothing quite as fun as hiring someone you dislike to work for you. An excessively high bid is a sign. It says the contractor just isn't into taking the job. Time to move on to find another one.

[phil]

maybe there is some benefit to dealing with a smaller company , one where you are speaking and quoting directly with the trades person and not with a middle man. ( middle person? ) . This guy that gave the quote is obviously not doing the work and that would be a bit of a show stopper for me. Its different if it were a big company you were hiring but why does a two or three man crew need a sales guy to do their estimating and if so, I think the next question in my mind would be how well do they communicate? Is there going to be confusion because the guy doing the work wasn't present at the meeting where you outlined the work and the strategy? Its normal that every last detail cant' be spelled out in a contract.
Its different if you are speaking with the foreman of a three man crew where he is a working foreman. In this case he is the guy you talk to and he is going to be present and the one responsible if things don't go right and he is the one who tells his crew what to do. If you have three leaders then no one knows who to listen to.
I think the quickest way to insult any tradesman is to say he doesn't know his trade or insult his workmanship and often just how one approached the issue is important. The level of what you let go is different in different circumstances.

I'll always remember a situation my dad described, he was a cabinetmaker and a great fitter. He was working for a contractor and the contractor pointed out some minor gaps in the fit of a crown molding. He said look I'm trying to make you money so I have to cut corners and I have to be able to make decisions that make financial sense. I can fit those pieces so they are watertight if that's what you want but I am trying to make you money.. He said the boss went away and thought about it and never approached anything like that as he agreed. It isn't always a case of how well something CAN be done, it is always a trade of of practicality VS time and cost. One can usually find faults in workmanship no matter what is being done but to communicate the level of workmanship can be a delicate matter and its really easy to make someone think you are insulting them by calling them on every one but of course there has to be some wiggle room. If you hire on a short term basis and work with someone a lot of decisions are made and you can carefully steer the level of workmanship by discussing these details of what to let go. You can observe the person's work and habits. and some are fast and some are perfectionists and some can adjust their quality level with an understanding of the many factors, cost time looks etc. As soon as the tradesman (tradesperson) feels insulted it can instantly cause issues for pride, optimism , friendliness etc. Some great tradespeople are horrible communicators. Its a matter of finding a good fit.Ultimately youwant someone that makes quality and time decisions that fit with the scope of your project so they may need info about the level you expect. that might be different if your house is your pride and joy and retirement house as compared to a flip or rental property.
some who are more in touch with the sales and marketing side might also be great at discussing quality levels without becoming emotionally entangled because they understand the touchy feely dynamics. Some who are craftspeople or artisans may take extreme insult to criticism because they really do care about the job they do so the one who gets insulted might also be the one who can do the best work because he( or she) puts his heart into it rather than it just being a paycheck.

[GibsonGM]

Good input, Jeep, Phil.

Sure there are a few ppl out there who don't like women, etc etc. Not many tho. Some real jerks, period. Some people try to gaffe the customer (ALL customers...), or maybe just YOU. As stated, there really DOES need to be some kind of relationship. Move on, to hell with 'em if they act like they don't want the job. Someone will!

I think ALL people should learn as much about their home as they can. They need to know some things in order to not be vulnerable. The price of a roof...why you'd need one...furnace...basic electric and plumbing. How much a paint job should cost, roughly. There should be courses before you can own a home!

Luckily, most REAL pro's realize that if you give a few prices out, people talk, and if you're way too high or just don't know what you're doing, it's going to get around. This helps keep the riff-raff out. Other guys will even come in and crap on you to the customer when giving another price, LOL!! I chaulk that stuff up to 'experience'.

~ Tangent: I got a call for a roof paint, local. Biggish roof, ok, but a 'roofer' told the woman (a widow) $8,000 to PAINT it. I told her less than 1/2 that. Or just have it re-roofed with new for $12,000! Ok, fine, we got along and she agreed.
She talked to him about ANOTHER job (outbuilding)...he was bummed to not get that 'paint job', started crapping on me, my price, a guarantee...bet that i have no insurance...she called me. I have $1,000,000 policy, and nobody will guarantee a roof repaint (unless you charge 8K, I guess, where he could just paint it again!). A CLEAR case of someone manipulating and using an older woman. He had charged her $10k to do a standing seam metal roof on her OUTBUILDING lean-to 2 car 'garage' (3 sides). This is why it's important to look from all perspectives...I talked to her about his 'opinion', then told her to call Sherwin Williams as well as the local building material provider, and relatives.
We're still all set for the job. Because I didn't lie to her in the first place. So yes, the dirtbags ARE out there. They usually go under tho.

[Texas_Ranger]

I'd still argue that quite a few guys constantly treat women in a way that makes my jaw drop to the floor every time I hear or read about it - just read the story about the guy who accidentally sent job e-mails under his female colleague's name and couldn't believe the sort of bollocks he was suddenly getting in return! This one was about women as professionals but crazy things happen to women around me every day!

And I firmly believe most of the difference between men and women is a cultural thing - it's burned into our brains AFTER we're born, not hardwired before.

[GibsonGM]

And on that note, I'm done with this topic, before I make enemies on here, LOL. Way too many gender problems for a forum about old homes, and too much tendency to make this about "men" like ME vs. women, which just ain't so...some of us like our culture and just as you'd not mess with the culture of New Guinea, feel that social engineering is actually quite harmful.

Last word from me ON THE TOPIC is: anyone, man or woman, that doesn't know how their home works, SHOULD work, what things cost re. repair...is wide open for anyone without scruples to take advantage of. Educate yourself, and if someone is trying to screw you, tell THEM to screw. Youtube is free, and so is chatting w/people at your local building material place.

That approach should work for your home AND for people who are trying to dominate you due to your gender; better to prove how strong you are than ask the gummint to step in and do it for you.

My wife would take one of these little booger money-sucker 'tradesmen' or mechanics we're discussing and roll 'em up, toss 'em right out the door with their tails between their legs, so I just fail to see the issue.

[phil]

I think we had some really interesting different perspectives. One great thing about putting out questions and ideas and asking for advice on forums is that you get different viewpoints and it's cool that we have many men AND women who work together here and try to help each other with so many things. Its really helpful to be able to share ideas and info and even just to show others what you are up to or against.

Getting some different ideas and perspectives is really helpful and often it helps people sort out a plan of attack. Ive had times when I was single and one thing I really missed was doing stuff and having others see my work. If you are alone in the basement fixing up a corner it is easy to get into a mental state where you stop and think no one else really cares what I'm doing here and then the satisfaction isn't there to drive me.. Sometimes having someone just look in and make a few comments about how much nicer it looks than last time they saw it is enough to keep the sense of accomplishment up. I think that same sense of accomplishment drives many who work in the field as well as homeowners.

We have all seen how ambitious Willa has been with her home beautification projects and I for one am impressed how much she has taken on and accomplished even in the last few months. I started to wonder if maybe she might deconstruct the sill and have a look to see what she or a contractor is up against. Perhaps examining and discussing the details of what to
do in each of the repairs over the forum could provide her with enough info to give a contractor a more defined project. She could source materials and then get quotes where they could see the project open and what materials she had gathered and maybe that would help that person to not have to quote on the unforeseen or to spend a lot of time sourcing materials. I know sometimes contractors get discounts but really what she needs most is someone to at least help with the parts where height or heavy carpentry and lifting etc is needed. and maybe someone comfortable with trimming some new parts to size to be ready for paint.

Then the next contractor might be able to quote on a more defined job and be perhaps less likely to pad the quote to try to cover themselves from the "what if's" ?

Maybe some parts could be on site primed and painted and trimmed to it's basic size and ready to be installed like the fascia board or the sill? could that window just be removed and taken to a glass shop for some repairs?

I think that might be my approach if I didn't want to take it on all by myself. I'd try to create a situation where the contractor could see it's a one day job. Materials are there, the job is basically planned and then the contractor could see finishing it in a day or two rather than discussing every possible option and "what if" in the quote. I wouldn't want to pay for the contractor to run around town sourcing materials buying lumber and paint and painting stuff and pulling the old nails and disposing of the garbage. That's not to say there is anything wrong with contracting out the whole job. I'd just see some savings in doing what I could from the ground without the heavy lifting or heights.
I'd source fir for the sill and the Fascia board and even if Willa didn't' want to measure or cut it she could buy a board long enough and paint it and let the carpenter take it from there, then just do a final paint after installation to cover the nails and trimmed ends etc.
the boards on my fascia look to be full one inch but not 2x material. they are good straight fir boards and perhaps original ones. Id; be picking through the lumberyard or maybe the old house parts place looking for boards that were appropriate rather than using home depot grade lumber that wont' last.

it's important that the fascia boards are seasoned. You don't want to put new fascia board on to watch them warp and twist or loose all their paint because the mill glaze prevented paint adhesion. there could be benefit to buying the boards and letting them acclimatize and normalize a bit or even to pressure wash and blopentine and then primer before you paint and use them. Often wood is still a bit damp to use when you buy it straight from the lumberyard. If you can get wood from a small mill you might be able to buy some of the dimensions you need. If it's still pretty green you might need to sticker and stack them and allow dry time. then when you use the boards they have already checked ( split near the ends) and you can then trim out those defects. If you can dry them and then cut a foot off each end they will be less likely to do that. if you have more to do you could consider buying a larger load and selecting out the knots and other defects.

Often lumberyards dont' mind you re-piling lots if you keep it neat so sometimes I just tell them look I need a couple real nice boards for a project so I'm going to move the whole pile but I promise I will leave it neat and then they are more apt to allow me to dig for a while without dirty looks. . I'l look at the end of the stack and see where in the log the board came from by the grain pattern and while moving them feel igf they are cracked or if they have a normal "ring" to them and look for knots and splits etc. feel the weight , look for lines of sap and things that weaken the board observe how tight the grain is. If you send a contractor he'll probably just grab the first ones that look sort of OK as he isn't' going to see the value in moving the whole pile for a little nicer wood. he may even just order the wood and not see it until it is on site.

the quality of those fascia boards is important , the studs in the walls etc can be whatever, it won't show. It would worth it to find a nice board for the sill and it might be oversize compared to standard dimension stock in the lumberyard.

Phil