wood rot under ext door threshold

[Lily left the valley]

We moved in during a wet time.

After I had lifted the "major move" cover on the vinyl planks, I started to notice puddling by the door. At first, I thought spouse just was not knocking his boots before coming in and putting them on the mat. When the snow and rain took a few days off and still a puddle, then I thought maybe our cat was being petulant and using the spot for when she didn't want to go upstairs to the box--it smelled off, but not, well, like cat pee can smell, so I wasn't sure.

When spouse said something to me as he was leaving work this morning, she hadn't left my side since the last time I had checked for a puddle. So she was not the culprit either. I had noticed the vinyl was already starting to buckle from the puddling, which didn't make much sense since the puddles had been small and were usually found within an hour or so.

Then I realized the "puddle" was moving. You could see where, along the plank seams, it was traveling both ways. That's when I suspected capillary from the door since they hadn't even lifted the threshold to tuck the vinyl under. Instead, they had put down a 1" metal thresh directly adjacent to it.

I had already realized whomever installed the vinyl did not do a thorough job vacuuming/dusting after they cleared off what was prior, as you could feel the movement in several spots throughout the entire application--especially the hallway near the cellar door. So there was a good chance that so close to the outside door, the same would be worse.

So I lifted the metal, and sure enough...a thin sheen of water everywhere. So then came out other tools and this is what I found:


What may have made things worse was two things:

1) There was a gap roughly 1" x 1" between the wood under the threshold and the lino/wood floor/subfloor.

2) Although there was sheet lino under it, it used to be a linoleum rug with other lino pieced in, and well...you can see why some of the detail being pulled without the rest just gave the water even more space to run. The "tan" stripe between the red lino is actually the wood floor below it.


Ok, so I found the entry point (to the lower left), hit the gap as best I could with the shop vac, and found the wood under the threshold is soft or just gone in one corner.

I also haven't slept yet, and it was a bit too early in the morning to wake the neighbors trying to pry more up to see how much would need replacing.

So I took pictures, and am asking the following:

Without having the full scope known as to the wood damage, in a perfect world my plan would be:

- later remove the bottom threshold and base wood, assess if only the base is rotted or not (hopefully)
- replace whatever rotted
- fill the gap
- take the box of extra vinyl planks and fill the cut back parts for now
- replace the threshold.

BUT...
I know this could be a can of worms beyond the scope of our current budget if the wood is bad below as well. Having said that, can I try to caulk the rotted area for the short term (hopefully just a few more weeks...could be a full month) and just live with the gap for the short term? I'm really tired of not having a fridge. But if we have to spend the funds on a bigger issue, then we will.

Edit: I've been watching the cellar walls pretty religiously as the snow has melted to see how much water we might get. I have not noticed a wet spot in the area under where the door is located. There is a 2 x 4 open shelving unit nearby, so I'll try to take a look after I sleep a bit and see how much of the actual sill I can eyeball for damage. I'd think, though, given the lack of seepage on the wall, we may have caught this at a good enough time that I only have to replace the base wood alone.

Your , please.

[GibsonGM]

Hi Lily,

Yes, these are hard to evaluate if you're not there. My take on problems like this that arise...none of the floor in front of that corner is soft? So the 'rot' has not gotten into the floorboard there? Would be a very good sign.

This is often called a "splash spot"; standing water works at the threshold. Then the damp doesn't dry...

Yes, get in below if you can, aggressively try to determine if the sill or floor is impacted below this area. Bright light, screwdriver to poke. Hopefully you find little or nothing...

In that case, gotta dry that sucker out GOOD. No caulk yet; find a way to keep water off for a week, at times apply heat from hairdryer or ceramic heater, heat lamp....when really dry then you have options.

You can muck the rot out and replaces with WOOD bondo (not auto)...you can caulk the crud out of it...but in any case devise a plan to keep water from going in that way. Hopefully it's firm enough for you to let it go, as you said, til you take care of some more pressing things, always mindful that this spot is there waiting for you It should NOT be a crazy job to dig in there and replace what's gone - it's not an intricate construction. Basic tools, basic skills and some imagination on how to make it bomb-proof next time. If the jamb has gotten punky...up the sides there...then I'd be thinking "new door", and would do what I could to dry/seal it for now, then replace later.

Risk of poking into it is that so much comes out you have to replace the threshold NOW, if the damage has gone farther than you think. <<oscillating multi-tool makes that easy, kids>>

You certainly have weeks to fix this, esp. if you can dry it well and then caulk, keep new water out of there. If you don't get it dry, carpenter ants will take that as an invitation!

[phil]

like windows and sills and doors there is a correct way and then a thousand "newer ways"
My dad helped me fit mine the traditional way and he did really know this stuff. I will try to find some instructions , I know I have seen them on the 'net done the way he showed me. and there are a lot more suggestions using techniques developed for the newer houses that you can avoid.

basically it is one piece . it incorporates the door stop and the part that goes outside the house is about 2 inches thick with a 4 degree slope to make any water that falls on it go back outside. since it is the one piece you really see and dont' notice that much when you enter this is something where I'd try to do it the traditional way if you can. I'd pick good weather and there will be some work to prepare a new one before installation. Its really common that they are not done properly and leak but it is a nice feature to have one that is done properly.
I'd find a kludge with silicone or even a little flashing for right now and after you get the new one made to fit then I'd allow a day to install the new one, You'll want a sunny day as there is a bit of kneeling outside when you fit it. It slides under the casings on either side and I think it sits on the sub floor and butts up against your interior flooring. you shouldnt' need any metal hardware. it's basically a plank but it isn't mounted flat it is mounted in a sloped orientation and so there are some saw cuts you will make at the same angle. You are basically mounting the board on a slope sort of like an outer window sill.. its easier with a set of instructions as otherwise it would be a little confusing to explain in type. Its one of those things that if you do it the correct way, the traditional way , no one will ever notice it

[Lily left the valley]

Thanks for the input, GibsonGM and Phil.

We had rain all day yesterday, so little I could do aside from monitor the interior. That door is on the east side of the house, so even with the overhang on the porch roof, you could clearly see that the north side of the porch's deck was much wetter than the south. (North side is closest to that hole in the wood.)

The good news is that what I did before I started this post at least stopped some of the problem--the water using the vinyl as a bridge across the gap no longer has that bridge. For the most part, the gap is damp, not overly wet. There is some minor--really minor as of later yesterday moisture creep up the side frame right by the hole, but I'm not worried at that level of moisture. What I really wanted to see is exactly where the subfloor is. From the edges I can feel with my finger, I think the base of that gap is the bottom plate, not the sub--again not 100% positive just yet.

I'm an idiot. I just remembered I have a dental mirror and I know exactly where it is. I'll check with that in the morning. Whatever was the first layer up from the base of the gap was barely damp, and may have been more due to the wet air coming in while I was sleeping, since the base of the gap wasn't overly wet--no detectable surface water, just a bit damp.

You can/could feel the outside air coming right through that small hole area. I did a quick hole cover for the night with a bit of duct tape after the rains died down so the tape would stick, although the temps and winds aren't near as bad as they were. It's definitely big enough for a field mouse to get in, though I don't think they'd climb on the porchlet. I figured better to just close the hole rather than find out if they climb stairs around here.

I need to do a bit more digging to figure out which box/crate/tote my work lights got jammed into. I've used them before for dryouts, and the mounting makes it easy to direct the heat where needed. I have a box fan too I can use to encourage the heat through the hole if needed during the day. The temps are supposed to be at least mid 40s later today which should help a bit too.

From what prodding I could do so far, I honestly think deferred maintenance was a strong player in this. On the side where the paint is still mostly on that wood, not too much is soft. Yet where the paint was well worn off, that's the main edge that starting sponging the water. Again, that side without as much paint is the north, so obvious nature of Nature being obvious, I guess.

I have not managed to find any water sign from the cellar looking up side. There is a board closing up the gap between the joists there, though so I'm not 100% certain. Still, this is a huge relief to not see the tell tale water drip down the wall.

We're supposed to have clear skies today and tomorrow, so once I get the wood dried out, I'll do the quick fix for now, and when spring finally rolls around for real, then I'll see to the final mend. I need to see if our locals have what I need in store or if we might need to take the short trip up the road after Sean gets off work to the boxes.

Phil, I think I know exactly what you're referring to although I haven't done it before myself. Any scribbling or vids would be appreciated. I might even have something bookmarked, as I remember looking into bits about exterior doorway constructions when I was worried the settlement gap at the apartment might need a bit of a helping hand before remembering I'm not the property manager there. (That was more for heat loss anyhoo, we never seemed to take in water there.)

[Lily left the valley]

Quick update, as I was checking out my duct tape patch held up...

It seems only the wood floor is above the gap depth.

Tar paper is at the base of the gap. And...this is not the first time this has happened, apparently, because when I probed a bit less gently, my scissor point punctured right through the paper on both ends--rotted on both corners of the frame of what may indeed be the subfloor and not the bottom plate.

The T&G subfloor, as seen looking up from the cellar runs E-W (T&G wood floor above that runs N-S). Here's a picture I took when I was trying to trace the doorbell wires--so the view you're seeing is the north (front) of the house, then a pic of the cellar stairs where you can see the butt ends of the hallway flooring buried under lino and vinyl on the other side of that threshold, again facing north.

So when I can pull up the threshold and look under the tarpaper, if I see board ends and not one board, that's subfloor for certain.

[GibsonGM]

It really doesn't look ALL that bad. It depends on how much you want to dig, LOL. Now, me - I'd kind of do what Phil is suggesting. Hopefully he can find those instructions!!

Cuz the way I would approach it, given what I see - would be to dig in, and whatever is rotten I would remove. That may mean using an oscillating multitool or other to remove the threshold.

Once the thresh is out, you can evaluate the flooring, and maybe nip some of that back. Making sure it's ALL very dry, you can replace the pieces that got "impacted", working your way back out, and install a new thresh. The hardest part will be making the new threshold. I've done them with my table saw and a dovetailing saw or similar.

The ease of this one is going to depend on your carpentry abilities, Lily...how well you can re-create what's there. I tend to lean toward "if it's not going to match, or will look silly, remove it and redo", myself. Meaning, you can get into a little bit of a 'chase' here....

[phil]

here are some pics of the threshold dad helped me make. Obviously I have some cleaning and scraping to do and you can see how well the Helmsman varnish stood up to the weather. but I wanted to point out how it fits.

- it is slightly wider than the door.
- it fits just below the two doorjambs. they could be cut to match the threshold angle but I guess we didnt' want ot emove them so thats what I have now.
- on the outside of the house , the "ears" stick out about half an inch longer than the outside casings. or about 5 inches past the edge of the door.
- the flooring runs up to it but not below it , you dont' wan the flooring endgrain to suck up water from outside.
- because of the slope any water that hits the doorjamb falls on the slope of the threshold and is carried outside.
- note that the board is trimmed to a 4 degree angle. that means that the other angles, like where the flooring fits against the threshold are not cut square to the surface of the board.
- it needs to be inserted from outside the house , because of the "ears"
it does not overlap the doorjamb, and contrary to my previous post the bottom of the door doesn't come up against anything, its just the slope that keep sthe water out.
It might not be textbook but I think this should give you some ideas and I am sure I have seen instructions on how to build the threshold and then how to install it.

I just found a 2x12 that was fir. If I had been a bit more prepared I think I would have found a tighter grained board for this.

you can see my fiberglass deck outside. it sees full rain. I ran the cant strip up behind the threshold so when water hits the deck it can't run uphill towards the house it has to run off the deck. it's pretty dirty but nothing a little cleaning wont' do. the peeling paint on thesiding is another issue..

and Ginger cant resist a photo op you can see by the previuos owners ugly weatherstrip stuff that her favorite pasttime is getting in and out of the door as many times as she can in a single day.

[phil]

here's three more pics of the threshold.

oh also the surface of the doorjamb that is under the door is level, the slope starts about two inches past the inner edge where it meets the flooring. so under the door, this part is not sloped and obviously you need a little clearance. I guess if you wanted you could put a weatherstrip there but then you's be stepping on it. or maybe there could be a screen door or a strip on the bottom of the door would help seal but I dont' think they used weatherstrip at all originally.
the threshold doesn't touch the ground or other stuff and so if water hits the door or the doorjambs you can see how it then drips down to the slope and outside where it can drip off.

i think if you find other houses where they hadn't played around with the dooramb it would look a lot like this. mine had been "repaired" and they ran the flooring under he doorjamb and it wasn't too good. they had used 2 inch flooring there and it didn't match so when I did the floors I ripped out all the 2 inch stuff and put 3 1/4" to match the rest. I had to router some of it out to stagger the joints so it didn't' look funny and all end in the same spot like it did when I got to it. I was able to pull out the old flooring and reinsert without the threshold in the way , so if you do yours maybe also check if you need to replace flooring or it will be kind of trapped there once the threshold is in place..

now you saw that way you could look at yours. maybe you dont' want to tear into it in which case there are probably other solutions that might be quicker.

[GibsonGM]

Looks nice, Phil! Like I've posted elsewhere...there's a weatherstrip you can get that mounts on the door bottom, so you don't see it, and works very well. Almost a rubber tube....

Like that threshold, that's the way they should be.

[Lily left the valley]

Looks nice, Phil! Like I've posted elsewhere...there's a weatherstrip you can get that mounts on the door bottom, so you don't see it, and works very well. Almost a rubber tube....

Like that threshold, that's the way they should be.

Our side door has the fin variety of that weatherstrip type. It's a newer metal replacement door. What I did find incidentally interesting is that the replacement door is 79" and our original front door is a full 79 ¹/₂". So I'm not sure if perhaps some of the multi-layer threshold for the side door is due to the possible height difference.

Thank you both again. My initial "Oh noes" panic is partly because I recently discovered old termite damage on one of the cellar windows that had never been repaired, so now that window doesn't want to close all the way because it took in water and expanded. So I've had wood munching insects on my mind this week.

After my poking, I am relieved, trust me. Budget it still super tight for us right now, which is why I am hesitant to do more than what budget allows, which ain't much right now.

These are pics I took today, and here it's a bit more clear that we have a wood piece (maybe modern 2 x 4), with a metal threshold on top, and then that older wood one on top of that. No angle on any save the slight on the metal, and you can also see from the comparison of the two sides that the left (which would be right from my interior discussion prior) is actually far more rotted than the right. With the right, it seems like the water is getting in from under as well where the gap between threshold and porch wood is, really. The hole that you can see from the interior side may have started from snow trapped between that gap. The side porch has no discernable slope, unlike the front porch. The decking seems much newer than the front. The lack of slope could also be part of the issue.:

Now comparing this to the front door (sorry, I didn't want to fuss with our quick and dirty gap filler, so ignore the towel):

As you can see with the front door, it's all wood, and there is a noticeable jut out of the threshold over the wood below, instead of having the metal one flush as they do with the side door. Of course, this doorway is much better protected from the elements distance from edge of porch and roof overhang wise. Still, I feel it's just backup affirmation of Phil's "do it right" version.

Phil, one thing I find interesting (and, honestly, I think better for the rain in some respects) is that your threshold goes under the side trim, whereas ours is cut into it. (You can see what I mean in the exterior pic in my OP.) So I'm thinking it might be better to shape fit the trim to the new threshold to rest atop it, rather than have it pieced in as before.

The door there is very new--metal, and I'm wondering having looked a bit again at things if they added the metal thresh that's under the narrow wood thresh when it was installed because it was shorter than the previous door.

The door itself has a weatherstrip (rubber fin style) on the bottom, and that rests on the wood that's above the metal above the wood that's rotting.

I think I'm going to make some sketches this week about how I could approach this, and ask for more copper at that point.

Oh, and thanks for the reminder about tighter grain--in my head I know that, but I might not have thought of it when I went to find wood. I'm hoping maybe we can pick up something at the Restore nearby. I've been looking for an excuse to drag Sean there anyhoo.

Oh..and worth noting: I've now confirmed that the AC siding is over a layer of foam sheet insulation which is over the original wood siding. So that may be contributing to the wonkiness overall as far as depth of the doorway versus trim, etc.