Trying to decide between Waterlox and Polyurethane

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vvzz
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Trying to decide between Waterlox and Polyurethane

Post by vvzz »

Tenants finally moved out of the third floor and I'm slowly restoring the three rooms there. Original pine floors are now exposed after being covered by ghastly and disgusting carpet over plywood:
IMG_3562.JPG
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I'm now at crossroads on how to proceed after sanding. One one side there's a very vocal tung oil/waterlox camp. On the other hand, I've seen few polyurethaned old pine floors and they look just fine. Does anyone have experience with both and would like to share it?

lovesickest
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Re: Trying to decide between Waterlox and Polyurethane

Post by lovesickest »

I can answer 50% of your question.

We had the original pine floors sanded, filled then finished with polyurethane (solvent based). Over several years, the fill between the boards worked itself out in many places, and the areas subject to the hardest use showed wear, including from cat claws(from running and chasing, not claw sharpening). The negative with poly finishes is that you can't do spot touch ups - you need to sand the entire floor to fix trouble spots (which are probably 0.5% of the total surface area).

On the plus side, poly is easy to take care of, you can wipe up spills with a rag and soap and water. The finish yellowed somewhat, which wasn't unpleasant. In retrospect, I would NOT choose poly again. I am attaching a pic of what the wear on a poly floor can look like:

badpoly.jpg
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phil
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Re: Trying to decide between Waterlox and Polyurethane

Post by phil »

I would do three coats of dainish oil , check and correct color as you go, when You like it then use oil based polyurathane over that. mine seem to be standing up well.
If you want you can just do the oil and then later do the poly if you want to , my second option would be to just use the oil, do lots of coats and put it on with 320 grit wet or dry paper, so you sand it in after you have about 2 coats down and that gives a super nice hand rubbed finish.

the oil adds hardness under the surface and fills some voids , the oil based poly then adheres really well to that. Ive never seen any peeling at all. I used deft brand and they are designed to work together it even says on the can to do that for a more durable floor. if you use poly, do three coats of the poly in the same day so it interlinks properly. the oil I'd leave a few days between coats so it soaks in well. also on the first coat of oil , let it dwell at least 15 minutes before you dry it down. the first coat is the one that soaks in and if it soaks in well it's best for adhesion.
it's ok if you give some time between the coats of oil and if you want it darker you can use a touch of stain in the outer coats but use clear for the first coats so it doesn't drive pigment into any scratches and bruises and enhance them. If you want to fill cracks I'd do that now.
after the poly goes on the floor will continue to darken from UV and that will continue for a while. If you want you can also tint the poly.

to apply the poly I use a sheepskin pad but I wrap it with some good quality linen , like a bedsheet, that holds the fluff in.

you can reduce the poly slightly if you need to. it depends on temp. there is a technique for applying it but basically you wipe it on and dunk the applicator. as you set it on the floor it leaves drop marks, when you lift it off the floor do it gently so as to not leave a mark. Your technique should be such that your drop marks are covered by wiping or you will see them. dont' stir it too much , you don't want air bubbles in there. if you want a satin or matte finish only do that on the last coat or it will not look as clear. It's best if you dont' hide the grain. make sure the room is spotless before you start. the applications of oil help pick up any dust or hair etc.

optionally you could just do oil , give it a few coats and see how you like it for a year. You might prefer just the oil. you can still wipe with a damp paper towel just dont' go crazy with the water. if you want you can always wait a year and still redo the oil finish and topcoat later.

I'd start with oil then make the decision later if you want poly too. part of the reason I like that way is you can see the floor after the grain pops but if you have a footprint or a bruise or something that shows you still can sand more with the oil until it is corrected. You can also play with the darkness a little once you are happy wit hthe look and apply the oil then it's nicer than just putting oil on the wood and then realizing there is a big footprint in the middle of the floor. very minor marks are invisible in the raw wood state and tend to pop once you have a finish down. if the first coat is oil you kind of have to live with that or re-sand the floor so I like this way as it is a bit more forgiving. If you find flaws and then do a little spot sanding after the first coat of oil and then give more oil you won't see any issues. you are going to basically feed the floor as much oil as it can take between periods of dry time. I like the danish oil as it has some dryiers in it but you could probably be as happy with other types of oil like blopentine or tung oil. they don't really put dainish people in the oil ;-) it is just a name and it is mainly linseed oil and turps I think. you can add more turps if it feels sticky. after you put it on dry as much as you can off. return after 1/2 hr and you'll see some oil seeping back out near the cracks, give it a second dry down to avoid sticky spots as it tends to ooze back out a bit sometimes.

in the above picture you can see other than the scratches that the surface wasn't flat before the oil went down. You can see where the softer parts of the grain tore out during sanding even under the finish. If you want a really nice floor before you do the oil you can hand scrape. It would take a day or so maybe three evenings. a flat cabinet scraper will take away a lot of defects like this and produce a higher quality finish, if you want to do the work. the better the surface is the better the finish you get. It's true that to recoat poly you'd see a line where the finish ended unless you went to considerable work to feather it in. I'd put some oil on the scratched parts and then rub it out well. It won't completely hide the scratch marks but that area would become much less noticeable as it would darken the bare wood spots, that's what shows most.

before you put your coating on , feel it with your hands it should feel smooth and flat, if it doesn't you still have the choice to sand more. If you try the scraper you'll see how it only takes off the high spots and wont' tear out the grain like in the above pic. it's easier if you have strong hands. if not then the holder thing that lee valley sells helps hold the blade and makes it easier.

Texas_Ranger
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Re: Trying to decide between Waterlox and Polyurethane

Post by Texas_Ranger »

I'm a fan of oil, especially on softer species of wood. We had our oak floors oiled and waxed in 2002 and they still look fine but the two rooms we polyed in 2004 look like hell. It's obviously a matter of quality too as we used two different products and the one in the dining room looks much worse than the one in the hall but still I'm set on oiling in the future.

phil
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Re: Trying to decide between Waterlox and Polyurethane

Post by phil »

poly is a tough coating but I have noticed the same. it doesn't make the wood less susceptible to dents from dropped items.
on raw wood, if you dent it you can sometimes apply steam or a bit of water and the compressed wood will for the most part return, but with a poly coating I dont' think you can do that. I'm not sure if you can do it on an oiled surface either. you can work hard to achieve a perfectly flat and smooth floor and perhaps be disappointed by the inevitable dents that will occur especially near the main entrance and near kitchen counters and pantry cabinets.

eclecticcottage
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Re: Trying to decide between Waterlox and Polyurethane

Post by eclecticcottage »

Is it staying rental space? If so, I'd go with poly. I have "raw" floors finished with BLO/Turp and touched up with Tung oil. They are lovely and they take someone keeping up on them regularly-but they were exceptionally dry to begin with. I use murphy's on them to wash them. I don't know that I would trust oiled floors to tenants who may or may not keep up on them.

Kashka-Kat
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Re: Trying to decide between Waterlox and Polyurethane

Post by Kashka-Kat »

Fyi- not all so called "oil" finishes are created equal - waterlox is a tough varnish in oil form that penetrates into the wood - this pg describes it better than I can - http://www.askthepainter.net/2013/03/wa ... il-finish/

For soft-wood planks like you have I think waterlox would be ideal, a good combination of durability, beauty and repairability. Poly is not without its own set of hassles if applied in rental unit - voice of experience here. All it takes is a few scratches or gouges from moving stuff around, water gets in underneath and the poly delaminates from the wood and then you have no choice but to re-sand, each time taking away more wood .... or if you do the preventative maintenance that some floor finishers recommend (ie light scuffing ev few yrs and a new layer of poly applied) that's going to be as labor intensive and prob more expensive than maintaining a waterlox floor.

Cant wait to see the "after" pics!

Kashka-Kat
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Re: Trying to decide between Waterlox and Polyurethane

Post by Kashka-Kat »

Ewww what are the pink blobs on the walls? Looks like some kind of disease! That will be a sweet little room, love the angled walls. Nothing evokes coziness like angled walls or slanty ceilings!

phil
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Re: Trying to decide between Waterlox and Polyurethane

Post by phil »

the PG reads to be advertising from waterlox, what it fails to reveal is what is in it aside from tung oil or if it is .0001% tung oil. The document doesn't list any advantages for any of the products other than waterlox, that makes it advertising hype or that's my take.

Im not saying it isn't a good product but varnish is a pretty general term, not specific like lacquer , shellac, polyurethane or other actual products. if it says it "contains varnishes" it is still an open question as to what the heck varnish is.

It may well be a good choice, I'd compare pricing and look for some other sources that give more impartial opinions. I know we all have our favorites and that's good info for vvzz

with danish oil or more clearly, linseed oil. It has been used successfully for centuries and poly began around the 30's so these aren't new products and they all have some advantages and disadvantages. When poly was invented it took over the market for floor finishing and became the go to product for good reason and it wasn't because the other products like tung or linseed didn't' exist. It was because it usually lasts a really long time without more maintenance.

I got the feeling this document was like the restaurant reviews that you see online , some can be quite opinionated or even written by those who wish to promote for reasons unknown. (owners and friends? ) I tried the helmsman one on my threshold and it didn't last at all. flaked off within 6 months. Now I have heard good things about spar varnish but the problem is that products can change and with environmental laws they often make substitutions without changing product names. I was very disappointed with the helmsman one. they shouldn't advertise it for outdoor use as it isn't suitable. its fine inside but it cant' take the UV for outdoor use.
http://www.minwax.com/wood-products/cle ... r-urethane
but again what is varnish really? all they seem to disclose about the waterlox is it contains some tung oil. Real tung oil might be a good contender for sure. how would tung oil compare in price to the Waterlox?

I think the wooden boat forums are likely a good place to glean some good opinions because although there are different circumstances, cheap products that dont' last wouldn't be recommended. I'd stay out of the big box stores and favor the products that are recommended for professional use. usually the "professional products" are the ones with the "bad stuff" in them that make them work better although they may stink during application or require more knowledgeable use of protective equipment. to me long lasting trumps "easy to apply" or "not stinky"

I found the comment " sticky like fly paper during drying" to be quite misleading and almost comical. untrue. If you apply it correctly it requires dry down on each coat, that's part of the process. It only gets sticky if you were to put too much on and not rub it down properly. I guess you could say paint is also sticky like fly paper during dry time but that wouldn't be a deterrent but a natural property of paint. If paint didn't' get sticky during drying it would be cause for concern in my opinion..

after doing my floors with the poly overtop of dainish oil I never saw any separation or lifting at all not even a fleck anywhere and I also saw the floor get soaked and stay soaked for a week so I dont' really buy that but as the picture that was posted shows, it is possible to get separation , maybe that floor was dirty or waxy or maybe it just sticks way better with the oil down first. I really found that article to be misleading although there may be some who are happy with the waterlox. I'd just use caution and research a bit more before rather than giving that particular document a lot of weight.


Phil

vvzz
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Re: Trying to decide between Waterlox and Polyurethane

Post by vvzz »

Thanks for all the replies! Not staying rental, I'm actually converting the whole house back to its single family glory. I have other properties for rental income. The pink blobs are fiberglass insulation. The room had terrible wood paneling with some insulation underneath. Luckily, whoever did it, had the sense not to touch all the original moldings and baseboards.

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