Guess the Estimate

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Kashka-Kat
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Re: Guess the Estimate

Post by Kashka-Kat »

I am sympathetic Willa but at least the guy actually came out and looked at it, and gave you a quote! The no. 1 cause of my old house burn out is dealing with these guys.

So tired of " I dont want to do it" either because they don't like my house (or maybe me). Why was I (and my house) so dang interesting on the phone, but then he comes to see it and suddenly he doesnt like it? One guy actually told me he only works on finer homes. So look it up on Google street view! Sheesh.

Then there was the guy who said"I dont know what it costs, it just depends what I find once I start taking it apart - you would just keep writing me checks on an as-needed basis."

Or then there's the ones that think because your house is a dump that you want it to remain a dump and so just propose cheap and cheesy short-cuts Probably the worst was one that came over, smelled of alcohol, and had a terribly pushy attitude, kept dropping his price the longer I talked to him. Instead of saying no flat out, as I should have, I said, well Ill call you if I'm interested. So he called me the next morning to say he was on his way over to start work! At that point I finally said NO!!! NOT INTERESTED, GO AWAY! Guess he didnt understand "midwestern nice."

What I dont understand about estimates is why they are always in $1,000 increments. Why $1,000, why not $790, or $1,115 ? When I was doing gardens I would give them a high and a low --- based on actual materials costs and guesstimated time based on contingencies. People liked it when it didnt cost the full high amount, even if it was only a few dollars psychologically they felt like they'd saved some money, but then I was covered if it did end up costing the higher amount.
Last edited by Kashka-Kat on Mon May 01, 2017 12:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Mick_VT
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Re: Guess the Estimate

Post by Mick_VT »

My furnace guy gave me a single point estimate, but he said "I tried to make it a realistic bad case scenario, I expect it will come in under but I don't like shocking customers by going over"... and sure enough he came in about $500 or so under.
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Re: Guess the Estimate

Post by Texas_Ranger »

I have to say inwards-opening casement windows do have their advantages. Pop a casement with broken glass off the hinges, drop it off at the glass shop and pick it back up the same day if you were early. Reasonably-sized old-house windows aren't too heavy either. Last one set us back about 70 Euros (less than US$ 80) for glass and labour I think. With energy prices being what they are, plate glass is expensive but I suspect the larger part of the job is labour - you rarely get an hour for under €100 these days even by companies with competitive prices and low overhead (one-man operations).

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GibsonGM
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Re: Guess the Estimate

Post by GibsonGM »

1) If I 'mobilize' to go do a job (I'm a painter, used to do more maintenance tho), you're paying me for the whole day. My tools, having to pack them up, drive, etc...that's worth something. I have to pay liability insurance and upkeep on my vehicles - someone CANNOT just make $10 on an hour job and stay in biz thanks to those requirements. I have to honor the repair, whatever work I did. So, you're looking at $175, $200 just to have me come do something for you.
Any materials I use are added on.

I'd find it hard to believe that anyone you find to do the smaller, old home jobs like these wouldn't operate the same way.

Change a window sill and it goes well? Ok, that's $225. I made arrangements to work at YOUR house today...that's my day, it was given to you. I could have framed a new wall somewhere else today, for a full day's pay. It's mainly really big companies, like heating tech. companies and such, that will go to the next job after charging you $50. Carpenters typically don't. I don't care what Angie's List says; try 'em if you like, nobody will want to work on the rot spot.

2) When you rip into something like a rot area around a door, say, or a window...you may well find more garbage inside. The rot CAME FROM ANOTHER PROBLEM, after all. At times, the whole WALL is rotten below the window. I feel the need say say "yes, you are going to have a revised price now - you'll have to keep writing checks", LOL...that should just be obvious. Can't always tell how bad something is until it is demo'd. Maybe demo should be one price, and then you talk about how and how much to fix it! So a smart contractor writes that in. I still do, for PAINT....what if I find an area on a wall up above a roof that is rotted, which can't be seen from the ground at contract time?

It may be that people put off such a 'cheap vibe' that people don't want to work on their homes, LOL. I have looked at paint jobs for people and just hustled back away, didn't finish a proper long-form estimate because they were already balking at "well, it needs a full scraping, light sanding, take away the debris..."...the look comes out, the guffaws, you KNOW they'll be up your kiester the whole time you're working....screw it, don't want your job, then! They want to buy you Home Depot paint and skip steps - great, so my company can look like crap when it peels in 1 year? NO THANKS! LOL

All you can do, rather than second guess, is to get other prices. I wouldn't hesitate to ask "gee, why $2,000 to fix that 10' long piece of wood?", rather than just get upset about it elsewhere...there's either a good reason why, or they're trying to hose you. It's not hard to find out which! Don't be shocked to hear they make $25/hour, though....why shouldn't they?

If someone wants a restoration-quality repair done on their restored old home, not the kind of quick repair that would be made on a modern 2x4 and plywood house - they're GOING to pay for it. That's just how it is, and it's why most people become pretty good carpenters in their own right when they buy an old home!! Just DIY. I know guys in their 60s that figured out how to raise a home and replace the sill, with a couple buddies...that sort of stuff.

Ask questions, get a couple of prices, but don't think you'll have a 'cheap worker' and get something good. Fewer and fewer kids are taking up the trades today, and we face an ever-increasing workload...supply & demand. High demand, prices go up. The cheap guy will probably ruin your house.

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Willa
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Re: Guess the Estimate

Post by Willa »

GibsonGM wrote:1) If I 'mobilize' to go do a job (I'm a painter, used to do more maintenance tho), you're paying me for the whole day. My tools, having to pack them up, drive, etc...that's worth something. ff.

Ask questions, get a couple of prices, but don't think you'll have a 'cheap worker' and get something good. Fewer and fewer kids are taking up the trades today, and we face an ever-increasing workload...supply & demand. High demand, prices go up. The cheap guy will probably ruin your house.


As someone who used to be self employed, I certainly understand and appreciate a minimum charge for showing up - as well as overhead, cost of tools, insurance, skilled workers, etc. That is figured into the cost of doing business. I expect that a quote in NYC is going to cost considerably more than a small, rural community, due to the cost of living and extra hassles like parking fees. If there are extra hoops like permits required to access part of the property from the neighbours side, that figures into the quote.

My indignation at the price I was quoted is not based on the actual costs of the materials, although that is a consideration. If the materials for the job cost say, $ 500.00, and it requires 16 hours of skilled labour to do the repair @ $ 25.00/hr ( $ 400.00), and the minimum charge is $ 300.00 to start (cost per day to maintain vehicles, tool inventory, insurance, gas, advertising etc.) that is $ 1200.00.

If this amount was doubled, to make it profitable for the owner of the business, that would bring the quote up to $ 2400.00

My experience with contractors thus far has been that price is no indicator of quality. Dirt cheap quotes are suspect, and quotes from hot shots with a fleet of expensive trucks with all the options, extensive advertising, grandiose websites are also suspect.

One trick this shyster used is to make the homeowner write down what is to be fixed. This absolves him and his company when they do work that is less than, as what they are to do (necessary steps) is never stated in writing ! This dude told me over and over how the work they do is superior, he showed me his tool set up in the van, he had a jacket and a hat with his name embroidered on it...

...yet never once did he describe to me what process would be used for which repair. His work is the greatest because he says so, yet he had no portfolio, and no list of testimonials from satisfied customers who are named, and no addresses to have a look at recently completed work ?

Kashka Kat: I totally get how many contractors don't "get" old houses, particularly if you as the homeowner actually want to preserve the old. This is absolutely incomprehensible to a certain kind of person ! I am discovering that I am in the "wrong" part of town. On this basis alone, I am treated with barely veiled contempt, as though I am wasting their time by daring to ask for a quote.

One thing that no one has mentioned so far, is that I am a single woman, dealing exclusively with contractors who are men. I have been actively looking for women in the trades, but have found none in my area so far. Without going into ancient history, I have been told complete falsehoods by contractors who were not intelligent enough to admit what I was asking about was outside of their range of expertise. I have been told that a fixable thing was not fixable. I have been offered convoluted and dysfunctional solutions. I have been very specific and sent links to have them ignored, then be lied to again. As a woman, I have been routinely treated as though I am stupid, and do not know what I am talking about. I cannot imagine the elderly dude who gave me this quote pulling this baloney on a man he considered his equal.

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Re: Guess the Estimate

Post by Olson185 »

Willa wrote:
My experience with contractors thus far has been that price is no indicator of quality. Dirt cheap quotes are suspect, and quotes from hot shots with a fleet of expensive trucks with all the options, extensive advertising, grandiose websites are also suspect.

One trick this shyster used is to make the homeowner write down what is to be fixed. This absolves him and his company when they do work that is less than, as what they are to do (necessary steps) is never stated in writing ! This dude told me over and over how the work they do is superior, he showed me his tool set up in the van, he had a jacket and a hat with his name embroidered on it...

...yet never once did he describe to me what process would be used for which repair. His work is the greatest because he says so, yet he had no portfolio, and no list of testimonials from satisfied customers who are named, and no addresses to have a look at recently completed work ?

Kashka Kat: I totally get how many contractors don't "get" old houses, particularly if you as the homeowner actually want to preserve the old. This is absolutely incomprehensible to a certain kind of person ! I am discovering that I am in the "wrong" part of town. On this basis alone, I am treated with barely veiled contempt, as though I am wasting their time by daring to ask for a quote.

One thing that no one has mentioned so far, is that I am a single woman, dealing exclusively with contractors who are men. I have been actively looking for women in the trades, but have found none in my area so far. Without going into ancient history, I have been told complete falsehoods by contractors who were not intelligent enough to admit what I was asking about was outside of their range of expertise. I have been told that a fixable thing was not fixable. I have been offered convoluted and dysfunctional solutions. I have been very specific and sent links to have them ignored, then be lied to again. As a woman, I have been routinely treated as though I am stupid, and do not know what I am talking about. I cannot imagine the elderly dude who gave me this quote pulling this baloney on a man he considered his equal.


I've been trying to understand why I experience much the same thing.

The feedback I've gotten, from guys who've done work for me, is that I give a first impression of being "fussy" and knowledgeable but inexperienced. "Fussy", in this context, being defined as "having it done according to best practices", "knowledgeable" is knowing what those 'best practices' are, and "inexperienced" is assumed because
1) I'm the homeowner and
2) I sometimes use big words so I, obviously, am college educated and, therefore, never performed hard labour like construction.

That's a fair synopsis of what I've been told. As far as I'm concerned, I'm thankful that's the impression I give since it scares off the wannabe "experts", the slackers, and the "I'm only in it for the easy money" crowd. While, at the same time, those who do good work have nothing to fear and find I appreciate them and their work and do what I can to make the experience a good one.

Once I had someone tell me he didn't want the job because I was very particular about the results. This was a job for post-construction (after 2 yrs since construction, to allow for settling) grading around the house for the textbook (code-recommended) steady slope of 6" @ 10' and with that slope extended to 15' resulting in a swale with the rest of the yard. I can only imagine what his idea of *not* being particular would be. But I respect and appreciate his honesty. I did the job myself using a mattock. I saved $9,000 (the only bid I got) but got little else done that Summer.

I have other anecdotes but the above is the most interesting. Well, except (maybe) this one: We recently requested quotes for removing a structurally unsound oak tree that recently lost a major limb. One guy quoted but wouldn't write up the quote unless he got the job...on the spot! Another bidder didn't quote but simply sent a bill which had to be 50% pre-paid, by credit card, before we could be told when the job would be scheduled! Don't scammers use this technique?

Willa, If I were bidding on the tasks you outline, I'd be thinking about what might have caused the situations, discuss these possibilities with you, ask what you wanted to do about mitigating the various things that might be found (to learn what is a temp fix despite what is found vs fixing what is found). Then I would breakdown each repair item by task with the cost for each task so you could decide what you might want to do yourself (ie. remove storm window for sill repair, or remove sash with broken glazing and cover opening yourself). You'd know what things cost and how you could save my time and your money so the job could be done faster and for less.
~James

Fourth generation in a family of artists, engineers, architects, woodworkers, and metalworkers. Mine is a family of Viking craftsmen. What we can't create, we pillage, and there's nothing we can't create. But, sometimes, we pillage anyway.

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GibsonGM
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Re: Guess the Estimate

Post by GibsonGM »

Both Willa & Olson,

It REALLY sounds like you HAVE been dealing with shysters...losers who are trying to make max. buck off people who are gullible, and it sounds like they don't really care about the work they do. Isn't there a resource around where you can find someone who is in a network of GOOD carpenters/plumbers/etc etc? Local hardware store or lumber yard will usually recommend people who they've done business with AND get good feedback about. My 'complaints' above are only about ppl who don't appreciate you, your work, etc...we'd rather do without that type. But the fly by nighters ARE out there - you have to find a way to keep them away from you.

Yes, a job isn't only the labor per hour + materials...if you don't turn a profit, you won't be able to stay in biz. That isn't how it works for the self-employed, sounds like you know that already. My motto is that if you need to get into that too much, you're already not getting the job - you should not need to justify your prices, they should speak for themselves. I guess many ppl. turn the real $25/hour into $40/hr, so as to not need to separately consider a profit...I don't bother, I just charge what is fair (often low-ish, but which is 'good enough for me' living were I do...return customers mean a lot more to me than a big $ hit and run). I have taken the time to build a good reputation, so I rarely have these issues anymore....I think you'd do well to find someone w/a good rep.

At great risk of sounding sexist: When I talk to a single woman, I have found that she is backed up by a friend, a father, a neighbor...someone who may suddenly appear to 'find out more'. Some women know a LOT about building, and are very good customers because they KNOW what something takes. My wife certainly does. The moral is that contractors trying to hose divorced single mom's often get blind-sided and caught out...someone often is looking after the little old ladies, too. I am glad when someone does. I'm painting a metal roof this year that a 'roofer' was going to charge a widow $8,000 to do. My price, a good price, is less than 1/2 that!

If you can find that resource, that stockyard to refer, then you can build 'the Relationship'. Where they show up, do the job after a little discussion, present the bill, and everyone is happy.

YES, communication and walking thru the real world conditions on the site are key! I like to discuss every part of what I intend to do on a job (and that goes in the contract); I find the customer is often the one who doesn't want to know so much, ha ha!

You'll find the right person to do the work, just have to keep looking....

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Willa
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Re: Guess the Estimate

Post by Willa »

Honestly - with regards to the soffits and fascias - I understand that this may be more like exploratory surgery. A decent contractor would hope for the best but prepare for the worst. It seems more reasonable for a statement to be made that a simple replacement would cost XXX but in the situation where major troubles are uncovered that need a remedy then an acceptable fix would be XXXX and a thorough fix be XXXXX.

When I was self employed, I tried to give people what they told me they wanted, and not upsell them. Most of the time, things were fine, and my work was decently profitable. Occasionally things would just go sideways - through no fault of the client - and a project could eat up much more time than anticipated. If this was due to the client changing their mind, being unavailable, needing components special ordered: on their bill. If I goofed, I made it right, even if this ate up any profits. This was a greater incentive not to goof next time.

With regards to the house, I think I understand that it is all interconnected in how the building performs. Like something that seems little, like ice damming in one corner or grading can create a huge problem (water infiltration, damaged ceilings, mold, etc.). I am the kind of person who needs to understand the interconnection, progression and possible remedies. I'm also pretty moderate in my approach. This probably drives a certain kind of contractor nuts as I'm not desperate, nor am I using phrases like "high end finish", and I also want to know ALL the details before anything starts.

It feels like there are two barriers. One is that it is an old house that looks old, and certain rooms like the kitchen look especially terrible, which leads to some wrong assumptions being made about me personally. Shame on them for having an impaired imagination ! A contractor, who doesn't understand what a room in progress looks like ? Remember the dude who quoted me
$ 1500 to install ONE DOOR in an existing jamb ? There's more like him, here.

The second is that this city seems like it has a pretty strong divide between the sexes - women mind the kids and the men drive fat loud trucks, including men who do not need a fat loud truck for conveyance (ie never used for hauling anything). As a single woman, in a "crappy" house, with more than passing familiarity with old house stuff that makes me an unwelcome anomaly, I guess ? I'm not going to hire anyone who treats my home with contempt, or me. Getting over that misogyny divide seems nearly impossible at times, as many men seem to find it very difficult to HEAR a woman speaking to them. Like the words I am saying get translated into Charlie Brown teacher noises.

A long time ago, in a different city, I dealt with a contractor dude a neighbour described as a "real sexist"but whose work was excellent and reasonably priced. I was cautious in my dealings with him - but we worked out an understanding. I kept out of his way when he was working but I was available if he had questions. I wasn't a nitpicking know-it-all homeowner, and he had very good judgement. Gradually things loosened up and he was showing me photos of his child and cat, with funny stories and things were completely, 100% fine.

Part of this contractor puzzle is finding a person I can work with, without being aesthetically or financially violated.

Drum roll, please:

The quote I received was $ 7000.00 CAN.

- One glass pane replacement, 2nd story
- One wood window sill replacement, ground floor
- 37 linear feet of soffit and fascia removal and replacement, including reinstalling existing eavestroughing, ground floor on back porch
- One wood window sill repair or replacement, ground floor.

Previous quotes from last Oct. to install new eavestroughing on entire house, including soffit and fascia repair and replacements where needed : $ 2200 - 2500 CAN

(I ran out of time due to moving/winter so this didn't happen).

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Mick_VT
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Re: Guess the Estimate

Post by Mick_VT »

sounds to me like it's likely what is known as a "F*ck off quote" - which basically means it is quoted real high because they don't want the job, but has insurance built in that if the customer says "yes" then the job is exceptionally worthwhile.

As almost everybody else has said... you need to get more quotes
Mick...

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Willa
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Re: Guess the Estimate

Post by Willa »

Yes to more quotes.

The f/off quote is a real time waster for everyone. Even fast food restaurants that deliver have order minimums and maps with boundaries printed on their menu, no exception.

I'm new to this community and I don't have relatives or friends who can recommend sensible contractors. No Angies List up here. The guys at the local hardware store probably deal with certain local contractors(who buy goods at retail prices), but unless they are having work done on their own home I don't know they would be in a position to reliably recommend someone.

I told the dude I would let him know by Monday. What are the odds that I will be a)harassed with phone calls or b) completely ignored ?

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