Hullo from the "there be dragons here" area of MA

[Nicholas]

Congrats, looks like you have the best of both worlds, an old home and a quaint shop in a good location. Best of luck to you.

[Lily left the valley]

Thank you both!

Today is about insurance and inspectors and hoping the bank doesn't call with "Still don't have that paperwork in my e-mail". Our closing is set for the 6 weeks instead of 8 because we're pushing our luck as it is with spouse's work schedule so close to the holly days. So he needs it today so he can order the assessment immediately.

I think the next two months of my life are going to be all about "Hurry up, now wait."

[Lily left the valley]

In hindsight, I must have teed the Fates off with my joke about hurry up and then wait comment.

This morning, I went to City Hall to pull the permit file for the house we're trying to buy as I wanted to see when the addition and such was done, get an exact date for the roof, and also to see how much was done recently since I just scheduled our home inspection for next Monday.

I was planning to ask to see 42's as well when I got the more important stuff out of the way, but what happened when they brought me 104's file kind of froze my brain. (Al, if you're reading this, when I saw your post on the etiquette thread, I laughed a dark and despondent laugh.)

The geniuses haven't had a single permit for all the work they did to 104. Worse, you can see the house through the window in the permit office if you stand a bit to the right of it, being as the home is almost directly across the street. All the guys there said (and I believe them) that if they had seen that kind of work being done (especially the roof and them hauling out the amount of plaster they removed), they would have walked right on over and asked what the deal was. So this means they did the nights/weekends trick. The guys at the permit office are livid, as am I.

Cue to stream of phone calls made to every single person I had already dealt with this morning to update, and finally I hear back from my agent. I will spare you the story, but the end result is: flippers of the worst kind. They were hoping to pass the buck onto us.

I'm now waiting to hear back from my agent who was instructed to tell the Seller's Agent it's time to put up or shut up. Either they get the Certificate of Compliance (what a CO is called here), or we're done.

After I get that answer, I have to call everyone yet another time except for the inspector, who I apologized profusely to for booking and canceling on the same day. He was great about it. He actually thanked me because when I called him the second time to warn him, I told him point blank "If you can fill the appointment we have, do it. I freelance and I know how hard it is to cover when things like this happen. You've still got spots open before our 10 days is up, so we'll just work around it."

[Edit: I forgot to add, as the inspector was weighing what I was telling him, he said, "Well, have you thought about a 203K? You might still be able to make this work and just drop the offer to reflect what will need to get done" I laughed and said, "If we wanted to go that route, we'd already be living at 42 Wickman." Which of course he didn't understand, so I had to tell him. I think he felt bad for saying it, but he really didn't know better and I wasn't upset with him at all.]

Now I am so scared over what the Drunken Weasels did on this job. (Wacky knows what I mean. )

I already know they're going to back out and try to find the sucker they apparently thought we were.

I do not want to face spouse tonight. This is going to hurt worse than when we had to walk away from 42.

[Lily left the valley]

Update: The good news is the seller's agent is going to try to get the seller to see some sense and still get this deal to happen. From what it seems, same agent is not pleased with the sellers right now, as they had no idea they didn't get permits.

What I'm hoping is they agree to correct the mistakes, which will definitely bump our closing date out further, likely at least a month, but I'm guessing maybe a bit more since it may now be an undo and redo of certain things like the new drywall because the inspectors will possibly have to see what they did behind the walls since they trashed all the plaster that was there.

The building inspector was not pleased to hear about any plaster walls being gutted. I think we may have an old house lovin' ally in him. That may be a huge help in the future.

For us, a pushback is not a problem at all. It'll get us past the Xmas rush window, and we hadn't given our landlady notice because it was still too soon to do so on our end. I am so glad we waited.

I don't know if this means the seller will ask for more, as our boilerplate offer doesn't have a mention of needing to guarantee the CoC. Legally, I think if we try to alter the P&S to include such, they might have grounds to ask for more. I'm not sure on that at this time. Our agent has never had this sort of situation before, so he doesn't know, and by the time I heard back, it was too late to call our RE attorney. He'll be in court all day today, so I probably won't be able to speak with him again until Monday.

I am hoping that this sliver of a possible silver lining holds. Time will tell.

[Nicholas]

Permit Stories:

When we were selling our house in Fort Lauderdale, one of these so called home inspectors seemed to be just trying to help the buyer get the price lowered, with the tire kicking attitude, by saying our addition in the back wasn't permitted. When my RE agent said of course it was, he insulted her by telling her she didn't know what she was talking about. (it was, and she did).

Meanwhile, the house next door, also a cash fix up, and worse than mine, DIDN'T have a permitted addition in the back, the room was actually slanted. But! the former mayor of the town, who owned a lot of real estate, rental single fam homes, and a couple of bars and restaurants, bought the house 2 years earlier for cash, and used it to store his restaurant equipment. He also had a large cage out back full of exotic birds, which led neighborhood cats, including mine, to just sit and stare. Talk about a circus!

So! guess what you can do, when you are a mayor that owns a lot of real estate? *Poof*, records are mysteriously destroyed. That house was sold, about a month after mine was, remodeled and resold for over 400k. By the way, our house was never resold, now 2 years in August, it was bought and remodeled by amateurs that probably watched too much "Flip or Flop" on HGTV. But that is another story.

Fast forward to our records search. I could find nothing before 1941. I was told that a flood in a basement where they were stored had destroyed many of the older records.

When I talked to my friend and neighbor, the town historian, about it, she said "Really? usually they say it was a fire".

[Lily left the valley]

Hee. I know how the record fires and floods can go. The new owner of 42's permit may have been denied solely based on the fact that two councilmen and a former Mayor live on the across the street block on Wickman. (It was one of the things we were rather happy about, actually, knowing that.)

There were permits in Pleasant's file, but the last one was from 2010 when the new boiler was installed. He had flipped through it (there were maybe six permits in there) before giving it to me saying the roof was last done in either 97 or 07 (I honestly can't recall more than the 7) which is when I said, "unpossible". That's what started the entire conversation about what was, without a doubt in my mind, the list of what they had done since buying the property in April.

I was still in a bit of a "OH NO" brain mode when I flipped through the oldest permits, for the addition and carport. I really was curious to the exact year. From my research, it seems my suspicion was correct, and they moved the kitchen to its current location when building the addition, since that style of colonial kitchen is very mid 50s- early 60s. It's like "not quite knotty pine" style cabinets.

You could see which permits (boiler, roof) were newer because they were printouts. The older ones all had the original permit, receipt and some other form (post inspection for aproval probably) stapled together and were folded in half.

I'm debating taking a walk back over to City Hall this morning before they close. (On Fridays they close at noon.) I don't know how much they can discuss with me as to what our options might be in such a case.

I also want to see if the rejected permit for 42 might be in the file that I'll be asking for when there. I'm hoping to sneak a peek at the name of the person who submitted it, since there is still no new deed recorded on the county website, and the RE sites still don't have it listed as sold. Can one apply for a permit before you own a house, if you do so with the intent to buy it?

Oh! And speaking of records being lost. The servants' quarters we used to live in at one time was owned by the town and they stored all the town's records there when they were building the new city hall. They had added overhead sprinklers there for insurance reasons. So if a fire had started, I guess records could have been damaged by both fire and a flood of water.

[Nicholas]

You saw my visit the other day.

The mortgage company wanted the pump re installed (1000 bux) so they could do a water test. They wanted facia repaired, and the hanging wires in the living room replaced with fixtures, among the bigger issues. Some of these do require permits. Why would anybody want to go through this unless they really really really wanted the house? That is why they gave up.

In your case, I don't know what the choices are, now that the info is out on the lack of permits you can get a price reduction?

[Lily left the valley]

Aaannnddd the latest:

Selling Agent has disclosed he has ownership interest in this property. They are now backpedaling and saying they only replaced a few rusty pipes, when the evidence is obviously much more. They are now also trying to say the home is AS IS.

Our agent thinks so long as our home inspector gives the place a go ahead, we're fine. I ask what happens if our inspector does find an issue? Our agent thinks that somehow they will address it when they are outright refusing now.

We are debating if we should stick this out. We both want the place, but I am really worried we're being idiots if we move forward. It feels like, if we do the inspection and it passes, we got lucky. But if we do the inspection and it comes back bad, now we're out $425 and a lot of time that no money can pay to get back.

Edit: Can we legally invite the City's inspectors to take a look when we have our home inspection?

[lovesickest]

Back away.

Flipper's only interest is in inflating their profit - not making a better, thoroughly repaired house. I don't know what flippers do in your neck of the woods, but I have seen many lazy atrocities with regards to quick cosmetic cover-ups in my neighbor's homes, some former flips from up to 25 years previously.

If you are seriously convinced this is the BEST house and the only house that hits all the bases, then pay for the inspection. But be prepared to walk away if troubles are revealed or the seller won't budge on the price.

Also, take a good look at the agent's and seller's behaviour this far. In Canada a realtor is legally obligated to disclose their interest in a property in the listing.

[Lily left the valley]

Nicholas: I learned from the permit guys that it is in our best interest to get the sellers to remedy than ask for a reduction. That keeps the burden off of us if something else comes up during the process.

lovesickest: Although not on the online listing, on the sheet we got from the realtor there is a clear disclosure which we didn't notice until after the trouble arose. Previous handouts we've gotten from our agent prior had no additional info I couldn't see online, so I hadn't bothered looking at it. One place we viewed did have disclosures about former termite damage that the Selling Agent presented during our viewing along with other paperwork about the home. So that was my fault for missing it.

~~~In general, here's the latest.
The sellers have realized we're not trying to change our bid to a lowball, we just don't want a headache we have to sue them over later which would cost much more than them fixing things on their dime. So now they're being much more helpful.

I'm starting to understand due to not enough room on the tax card for fully accurate notations, and how some permits get filed...there may be some truth to what they claim. I also realized that we have only looked at younger older homes, where there was less time for former owners to do their own updates through the years. Out of those, 42 was most intact from the original, the '35 bungalow a close second. The others either had all new windows, complete lack of drywall and more--even the '60 ranch.

It wasn't until the other day that I realized where the original 1850 kitchen likely used to be when comparing it to two 1900's homes two doors down either way. One has the original footprint, one has the same but built a second story over the L jut out where the 2nd chimney is, which gives validity that it is the original kitchen location. Given the current cabinet style at Pleasant, they moved the kitchen to what may have been the old back porch, closer in direct line to the dining room when they built the addition. It could have been moved earlier, and they just had new at the time cabinets installed then as well.

We also ran into a neighbor next door who happily admitted he'd been watching some of their work since his windows face the house so he can see right in--good to know our bedroom needs a total view obscuring window treatment! He doesn't seem creepy, just honest.

We have scheduled our home inspection for Thursday. We have invited the selling agent/part owner to the home inspection on Thursday. I haven't heard back yet if they will do so. Either way, I'm going to ask for a list of what they claim they did (or better yet, the work orders minus the financials, I don't expect them to show me that much.)

The other potential good news is I realized some of the listing photos show painted paneling. The same paneling that was added to the walls (minus paint) when the mid century addition was built. I assumed when we viewed that all paneling inside the original structure was over drywall. However, there is a chance that during the addition construction--when we know something with the kitchen was done--they may have also added the 1/2 bath upstairs, and done upgraded electrical and plumbing for that time. The tax card isn't specific about what covering types are where, just that they are there.

The obvious work we saw in the basement (plumbing especially) is what the sellers are saying they did. The one wiring bit I thought was a replacement may have been a PO fix near a basement window, given some older reinforcement I noted--to be clear, wiring is well above said window.

The roof, I'm still not sure. When we asked the neighbor, he looked over to the house and pondered if it was three tab, but wasn't certain from that distance. He couldn't recall them doing any roofing work, so that was some small relief. I did notice that the tax card notes "ROOF 25Y", but not date as to when that started. Even if it was installed in '97, that means we still have six years or so on it in the best of all worlds.

As to the newer toilet, bath, et al, there is a note on the tax card about the fireplace in '80, with assessment value to such. Some of the permits have other less major work tied in, so with the new roof may have come new baths. There again, is a chance that those newer fixtures are not as new as suspected. If the current owners truly changed just the plumbing related to the 1st floor, as long as those actual pipes are permit issues, there might not be anything/much that needs to be undone in the "behind a wall/floor" sense since it's visible from the basement for the most part.

I'm going to head back over to the permit office this morning to take a very close look at the permits prior. I didn't photocopy anything then because I was still reeling that the current owners hadn't pulled any permits, given the totally obvious plumbing in the basement. They charge $ .50 per copy there. That made me feel old. I remember when libraries charged a nickel.

Since we are keeping everyone involved in the loop, everyone is now being pretty cordial and willing to help us work this out. This is GREAT news compared to the pit of despair I was living in last week when my worst fears seemed to be true.

All of the above may be logical resolutions to what I thought were the biggest violations save the 1st floor bath plumbing. However, if it turns out that this is just one hot mess as I'd feared, and they refuse to remedy, we will walk.

Spouse and I decided we like this place enough (especially at this price) to swallow the home inspection fee if we have to walk away. (I have been told we can pursue getting it back, but the cost to do so could be much more than what we'd likely get back.)

Given how folks seem willing to be reasonable now, I'm hoping things move forward. Thursday can't come soon enough!